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Re: Java implementation of the new Office 12 UI?
As I have said before, customers do not care about native look and feel anymore. In fact, they don't want it. Instead, they want the ability to "express themselves" through the way their desktop applications look. Look at Winamp for example. It is the most popular media player in the world. And it's Look and feel is nothing that even remotely resembles native. And how many thousands of themes can you download for it?The whole "Java apps don't look native" argument is not at all relevant today. Microsoft stopped following their own look and feel guidelines a couple of years ago. Office XP didn't follow it, Windows Media Player hasn't followed them in quite some time, etc.
Re: Java implementation of the new Office 12 UI?
Finally! Thanks MichaelRomain Guy's Java Weblog, #ProgX, Jext
Re: Extremely long interview + demo of Office12 UI
> Have a look if you have 41 minutes to spare... I> suggest skip ahead to the actual demo part of the
> video if you're just interested in looking at the
> UI.
>
> http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=114720
It looks *really* good. I mean that not from a visual design perspective, but from a usability perspective. From the interview, it looks to me like they're heading in a good direction.
Richard
Re: Java implementation of the new Office 12 UI?
Hey Andy,Someone was saying that Microsoft is turining out another bad UI toolkit.
My point is that Microsoft's new UI system is much better. Not necessarily that it is all innovative new ideas. They are copying Java with C# and tons of Mac stuff (office 12 looks like a mac app). They are playing catch up with Mac OS X UI with Vista (as they should be when they were so far behind).
Its really difficult to explain all the UI crap they are doing with their GUI framework stuff and its not my job anyways... Go look at some of the many video demos if you really are interested in the facts or go continue your anti-Microsoft Jihad.
Re: Java implementation of the new Office 12 UI?
> The 3D elements he talked about are much better than> what you can do in Java today. For instance you can
> put a 3D animation in a button on mouse hover. You
> can do that in Java today but it requires nasty
> tricks whereas Avalon offers native 3D/2D compositing.
There has been some work underway to achieve the same kind of 2D/3D interoperability in Java via OpenGL and the Java2D OpenGL pipeline. Coincidentally we just released a Java Web Start demo of this new functionality this week. Take a look at the Java2D/JOGL news item on http://www.opengl.org/ and try the web start demo. The new speedups are available in Mustang build 51 for Windows, Solaris and Linux and work is underway to bring the same level of performance to Java on Mac OS X.
Re: Java implementation of the new Office 12 UI?
Cool I didn't know whether I could talk about that yet or not :))Romain Guy's Java Weblog, #ProgX, Jext
Re: Java implementation of the new Office 12 UI?
I like most of the new ideas, I just dislike some color choices. Other than that I'm thrilled by the impressive move foreward they are taking. Avalon looks really great. I can't wait to give Sparkle a try.Romain Guy's Java Weblog, #ProgX, Jext
Re: Java implementation of the new Office 12 UI?
> > -Its vector based and resolution independant so> you
> > can specify sizes in physical terms (cm/inches)
> not
> > just pixels. This will allow people to start
> moving
> > to even higher res displays and not worry about
> about
> > everything being tiny but have a much better dpi
> and
> > crisper graphics.
>
> I'm not sure about the history of that one. I'd bet
> money, though, that it's nothing new or innovative.
>
Yeah, I was thinking of NeWS or Display PostScript...
Currently engaged in Weffo web architecture outline and the Flying Saucer xhtml and xml+css renderer
Re: Java implementation of the new Office 12 UI?
> Look at Winamp for example.Why is it that people always bring up Winamp... and that's it. Is that the only app that allows skinning where people actually use it?
(Hint: mention Mozilla apps like Firefox or Thunderbird).
Personally, I can't stand all the fuzzy skins that media players force on me... for instance I only use gxine or aviplay for video because they're players that offer me a usable GUI (compared to the useless fiddly little things that the default xine skin pops up).
I don't buy that people want to "express" themselves... Geeks like shiny GUI glitzery ... but most people just want to use the software and express themselves *using* the software instead of being restricted to expressing themselves via their software.
Oh... and BTW: what happened to looking at Apple for GUI advice? They don't offer skinning, as far as I know MacOS X doesn't even allow to change the colors for UI controls (because by this, it can ensure that the user sees the same thing on every Mac). Of course... Apple has been using non-"standard" looks (like the various brushed metal variants)
> Look and feel is nothing that even remotely resembles
> native. And how many thousands of themes can you
> download for it?
Which are mostly used to but images of various stars in the background of your xmms GUI... not to mention that nearly all of these themes are useless because you need polarised sunglasses to figure out where the actual controls are through all the blinding color and nonsense.
Re: Java implementation of the new Office 12 UI?
I believe that Winamp's skins were successful at the beginning because Windows 95 had a horrible look and feel. I believe that when you have the option to change the look and feel of the windowing system that's quite enough. That offers enough interface customization without the overhead of needing to skin each application in part.Re: Java implementation of the new Office 12 UI?
> Hey Andy,>
> Someone was saying that Microsoft is turining out
> another bad UI toolkit.
>
> My point is that Microsoft's new UI system is much
> better.
Better than what? Better than XP? Why is it that everyone seems to compare MS products with previous MS products rather than the competition? When you buy a car or a house or a ball, do you compare it to the previous versions from the same manufacurer? No. Of course it will be better.
> Not necessarily that it is all innovative new
> ideas. They are copying Java with C# and tons of Mac
> stuff (office 12 looks like a mac app). They are
> playing catch up with Mac OS X UI with Vista (as they
> should be when they were so far behind).
I wasn't saying that Vista has nothing innovative, just backing up the "we don't want MS steering the boat" comment. You don't want MS setting the direction on most things, because they can't even keep up with everyone else, let alone set a good direction.
>
> Its really difficult to explain all the UI crap they
> are doing with their GUI framework stuff and its not
> my job anyways... Go look at some of the many video
> demos if you really are interested in the facts or go
> continue your anti-Microsoft Jihad.
The problem is, I've seen too many MS videos already, and they (like most everyone's) don't give you enough technical info. When MS-DOS came out, it was safe to assume that it didn't have any big technical advantage over DR-DOS. Same for Windows vs. MAC. Same for XBox vs PS2. You can call it a "jihad" if you want to, but I'm just going from experience here.
They billed Windows 95 as a huge step over 3.1, then did the same with 98. Same for the NT line. And, they have a reputation of announcing products years before they deliver and often what they deliver is different from what they announce. So I think it's too early to judge Vista anyway. People have been saying all these great things will be in Longhorn for a couple of years already.
If I tell the world I'm gonna build a great spaceship and it will be ready in a few years, you might be tempted to believe me. But after 10-15 years of me promising things and not delivering (or delivering years late), then no one really should take what I say too seriously.
Re: Java implementation of the new Office 12 UI?
> > Look at Winamp for example.>
> Why is it that people always bring up Winamp... and
> that's it. Is that the only app that allows skinning
> where people actually use it?
> (Hint: mention Mozilla apps like Firefox or
> Thunderbird).
I agree that winamp is a red herring. But I agree with the sentiment that neither Microsoft nor Apple apps always use standard components or standard layouts. Office has always been an example of this. LAF fidelity is sometimes important, sometimes not.
What *is* important is the usability experience that your users have, and the app's style. Given two applications with the exact same feature set, my feeling is:
1) The one with more usability wins
2) In the case of a tie the most stylin' wins
Some people would argue that #2 is actually more important than #1, but I think that depends on your target market.
Richard
Re: Java implementation of the new Office 12 UI?
We must have different customers then. My customers care very much about being able to transfer their knowledge of how one app works over to the next app. I doubt any of them run WinAmp, but even Office XP follows the Windows L&F. For example it uses a pretty normal File Open dialog that has all the functionality of every other File Open dialog on Windows. They added some highlights and shading on the toolbars and menus but basically it is just the same old ComCtl32 widgets that came with IE.Author, Google Web Toolkit, Eclipse IDE Pocket Guide, Eclipse in Action
ZDNet blogger, Dev Connection; former Top Eclipse Ambassador.
Re: Java implementation of the new Office 12 UI?
> Better than what? Better than XP? Why is it that> everyone seems to compare MS products with previous
> MS products rather than the competition? When you buy
> a car or a house or a ball, do you compare it to the
> previous versions from the same manufacurer? No. Of
> course it will be better.
At the time I was refering to previous Windows UI systems because it was said they "turn out one bad UI toolkit after another". Now that I think about it I would say it looks better than competitors in most regards for the reasons I listed earlier (looks better than Java's GUI stuff for sure and as good or better than Mac). You could probably find some libraries that do some simillar stuff but not the complete package integrated well. That said, I haven't personally worked with it so it could have more problems than I think. Other systems probably have features they don't have.
But this is all about WPF which I doubt Office 12 uses anyways (which is the origional context of the thread).
Re: Java implementation of the new Office 12 UI?
See http://weblogs.java.net/blog/kirillcool/archive/2005/09/who_does_not_wa.html