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You only have to spend a few minutes at JavaOne to know that Apple is popular with Java developers. Everywhere you look, you will see someone carrying around a shiny brushed metal MacBook Pro, or a gloss black or gloss white MacBook. Rick, Matt, and I, all have MacBook Pros. In addition, I have a dual core G5 PowerMac on my desktop, and Rick has a MacPro. Between company purchases from Apple, and our own personal purchases, we've spent tens of thousands of dollars with Apple on computer products. I think we've been quite loyal to Apple. But as of today, that's all changing for me. Today I am saying "so long Apple. The party's over."
What party do I mean? I mean the free ride that I as a Java developer have been giving Apple for way too long now. And as we have remained loyal to Apple, Apple has basically spit in our face. Not only did Leopard not ship with Java 6, but Apple, in typical fashion, apparently thinks it has no obligation to its customers to inform them about why the plans changed, and when (or even if at this point?) Apple will ever have a working copy of Java 6. Apparently, Apple has even been just deleting threads in their forums where people are complaining that Java 6 doesn't exist, rather than actually respond to them and let them know if there is any kind of time line for Java 6. But wait... It gets worse...
Java 5 on Leopard is so broken, that some of it is flat out unusable. For example, I recently tested an application I wrote that uses Java2D for image zooming. On Linux, Windows, and on Java 5 in OS X Tiger, it worked fabulously. The scaling and zooming are very smooth. On Leopard, it is not even usable. It's slow, and manages to rescale during zooming at about 1 frame every 5 seconds. Working with IntelliJ IDEA in Leopard has been no picnic either. On a fairly regular basis, it will seem to just hang for 10 seconds or more and then start working again. I suspect the garbage collector is having problems, but once again, these are problems that did not exist in Java 5 with the previous version of OS X.
Where as Apple used to go out of there way to make sure that Java applications looked as close as possible to native applications, it now appears they are going out of their way to make sure end users know they are running a Java application:
Yeah, those are the JOptionPane standard information and question dialogs. Apparently Apple decided it wasn't important to visually distinguish the two
types of dialogs by using different icons... Or even using icons that made
contextual sense for that matter.
As most know by now, Apple has yanked the Java 6 developer previews. No sign or trace of them left on the ADC site. Apple gave no indication as to why it yanked them, if and when there would be new ones, etc. So effectively, we are currently left with Leopard having NO fully working version of Java available for it. You can't get Java 6, and Java 5 is so broken that parts of it are flat out unusable on Leopard. As a Java developer, this is a situation I obviously cannot live with.
As James Gosling mentioned in a
blog entry
a couple of weeks back, he has already given up on Apple. "As several people have noticed at my talks over the past few months, I no longer carry a Mac laptop. As much as I love the Mac's eye candy, it really hasn't been keeping up as a developer's machine - their attention has clearly been elsewhere." Gosling
also says
"Apple's JDK support is a part of my problem, and yes, I have their JDK6 from the ADC. I've met the folks on the JDK team and they're trying real hard. It's hard to tell what the fundamental issue is, but it keeps feeling like the big problem is that developers aren't the "Target Demographic"."
I decided to give them until they actually released Leopard before I gave up on them. Although given how silent Apple has been recently about Java on Leopard, and how their developer technology pages on Leopard prior to the release did not say even one word about Java on Leopard, I held out very little hope that Leopard would actually ship with Java 6. But I never expected that it would be so bad that Apple would have broken Java 5 on Leopard.
Now that Leopard is out though, and there is no Java 6, I'm finally giving up on Apple and putting my PowerMac up for sale. Furthermore, my MacBook Pro will become a dual boot machine, and will spend most of its time running Windows.
The lack of a fully working Java for Leopard at this point is bad enough. The fact that Apple apparently backed out on Java 6 shipping with Leopard is also bad. But once again, the part I have really had it with, is the unprecedented arrogance of Steve Jobs and company, and the fact that they seem to feel they have absolutely no obligation to communicate to their customers why they changed their plans, why the yanked software that used to be available, and when or even if they will remedy that. Well, here is my response to that attitude:
Sorry Steve Jobs, but since you've got no time for your customers, and you've got no time to explain to them why plans changed, and when or even if the situation will be remedied, I've got no time for your products anymore.
You know, every time I look at Steve Jobs, and Apple's practices, I say I'll take Bill Gates and his Microsoft evil empire any day over Steve Jobs'. This arrogant jerk PC market share is not even 5% (for a good reason) and is acting like this. Can you imagine the tyranny, and the evilness of a Apple dominated world? I guess this guy never learns. Just like before, he's taking Apple back once again to being an irrelevant player in the PC market.
This is unacceptable, i wonder if there is any way to actually let Java Developers knock on Apple's doors and ask what's going on with Java (no long ago iJobs said Macintosh will be the best platform for Java developers, i bet that day he had one of his hippie's flash back).
I don't really want to run Linux or Solaris on my MB under VMware most of my day, because that wouldn't make any sense at all, I want a Mac that does what is supposed to, work and no play with iLook, iSpace and so on...
I wish i didn't order Leopard, so i could've spared my £139 british pound, what a RIP OFF Apple,
thank you very much!!
I think this is a great time! Apple really never had a bug for bug compatible JVM.
I think that there is something wrong with your analysis of the situation. Java6 not being available by Apple is NOT Apple's problem. Apple is showing that it couldn't care less! I hope that it is sufficiently clear for everyone now.
The REAL problem is for the Java platform and the write once run everywhere motto. Now the Java platform (version 6) is NOT compatible with Apple anymore.
So what are we going to do? Are we going to beg Apple again and again to have the JVM updated with a more or less compatible/crappy version? Are we going to beg Sun to support Mac OS X ?
My opinion is that we've tried the former many times before and it just doesn't work. Apple can be interested at times in Java and then it loses interest for few years.
Apple would actually do us a favor if it dropped Java completely. Please Apple, erase Java from every mac on the next Software Update!
I remember when I first learned to program in Java (on a Windows PC), I bought one of the very first iMacs primarily so I could try out Java's write-once-run-anywhere promise. It did work, but I remember the Apple Java implementation being buggy, awkward, and six months behind (at least). So when Steve Jobs announced not-so-long-ago that Apple would make the best platform for Java developers I thought...great, but...I don't believe you. Sometimes my cynicism gets in the way, but not this time. I develop on Linux, test on Windows, and let others worry about other platforms.
> Even worse, apparently they(apple) don't know how to
> write message: have a look at the left dialog, it
> spells 'Information Mesage'
That was a typo on my part. When I typed the text into the parameter string for JOptionPane. But the screen shots are real. I just made a typo in the string in my code.
That message string that says "mesage" doesn't come from the runtime, but it's the message string you pass to option pane. Just a simple mistake by the author.
I'm not sure, but as far as I know if you haven't opened the package it should be no problem - furthermore you've a reason to send it back (not just only "id didn't like it").
I almost sell my self for a Mac, I was planing to buy a MacPro and get Leopard this november but I'm lucky I didnt, I'm a Java developer and Linux user. But again as someone said apple is doing again as before they never learn and specialy that arrogant of Steve Jobs. I don't know what he want to prove doing this shit. The only way I see it is if Sun can get the control of Java for the Mac as they have with Windows and Linux. OpenJDK I think will be a huge effort or look into IceTea implementation and check it if can port it to Mac. But as Mr.Gosling said apple Mac computers are not anymore the dream machines for Java developers, it doesnt matter anymore.
Is there any way that SUN could intervene in that current mess ? The lack of Java 6, and any news about it can't be good to the Java name.
Also, does Apple's JVM should pass some standard compatibility test ?
For my part, I would like to see some discussions on the possibility of having an open-source jvm/jdk on Mac; Apple clearly can't be trusted with Java. Their incompetence handling Java is a real insult to the Java community.
So Long Apple. The Party's Over
At 11:03 AM on Oct 29, 2007, Michael Urban wrote:
Fresh Jobs for Developers Post a job opportunity
You only have to spend a few minutes at JavaOne to know that Apple is popular with Java developers. Everywhere you look, you will see someone carrying around a shiny brushed metal MacBook Pro, or a gloss black or gloss white MacBook. Rick, Matt, and I, all have MacBook Pros. In addition, I have a dual core G5 PowerMac on my desktop, and Rick has a MacPro. Between company purchases from Apple, and our own personal purchases, we've spent tens of thousands of dollars with Apple on computer products. I think we've been quite loyal to Apple. But as of today, that's all changing for me. Today I am saying "so long Apple. The party's over."
What party do I mean? I mean the free ride that I as a Java developer have been giving Apple for way too long now. And as we have remained loyal to Apple, Apple has basically spit in our face. Not only did Leopard not ship with Java 6, but Apple, in typical fashion, apparently thinks it has no obligation to its customers to inform them about why the plans changed, and when (or even if at this point?) Apple will ever have a working copy of Java 6. Apparently, Apple has even been just deleting threads in their forums where people are complaining that Java 6 doesn't exist, rather than actually respond to them and let them know if there is any kind of time line for Java 6. But wait... It gets worse...
Java 5 on Leopard is so broken, that some of it is flat out unusable. For example, I recently tested an application I wrote that uses Java2D for image zooming. On Linux, Windows, and on Java 5 in OS X Tiger, it worked fabulously. The scaling and zooming are very smooth. On Leopard, it is not even usable. It's slow, and manages to rescale during zooming at about 1 frame every 5 seconds. Working with IntelliJ IDEA in Leopard has been no picnic either. On a fairly regular basis, it will seem to just hang for 10 seconds or more and then start working again. I suspect the garbage collector is having problems, but once again, these are problems that did not exist in Java 5 with the previous version of OS X.
Where as Apple used to go out of there way to make sure that Java applications looked as close as possible to native applications, it now appears they are going out of their way to make sure end users know they are running a Java application:
Yeah, those are the JOptionPane standard information and question dialogs. Apparently Apple decided it wasn't important to visually distinguish the two types of dialogs by using different icons... Or even using icons that made contextual sense for that matter.
As most know by now, Apple has yanked the Java 6 developer previews. No sign or trace of them left on the ADC site. Apple gave no indication as to why it yanked them, if and when there would be new ones, etc. So effectively, we are currently left with Leopard having NO fully working version of Java available for it. You can't get Java 6, and Java 5 is so broken that parts of it are flat out unusable on Leopard. As a Java developer, this is a situation I obviously cannot live with.
As James Gosling mentioned in a blog entry a couple of weeks back, he has already given up on Apple. "As several people have noticed at my talks over the past few months, I no longer carry a Mac laptop. As much as I love the Mac's eye candy, it really hasn't been keeping up as a developer's machine - their attention has clearly been elsewhere." Gosling also says "Apple's JDK support is a part of my problem, and yes, I have their JDK6 from the ADC. I've met the folks on the JDK team and they're trying real hard. It's hard to tell what the fundamental issue is, but it keeps feeling like the big problem is that developers aren't the "Target Demographic"."
I decided to give them until they actually released Leopard before I gave up on them. Although given how silent Apple has been recently about Java on Leopard, and how their developer technology pages on Leopard prior to the release did not say even one word about Java on Leopard, I held out very little hope that Leopard would actually ship with Java 6. But I never expected that it would be so bad that Apple would have broken Java 5 on Leopard.
Now that Leopard is out though, and there is no Java 6, I'm finally giving up on Apple and putting my PowerMac up for sale. Furthermore, my MacBook Pro will become a dual boot machine, and will spend most of its time running Windows.
The lack of a fully working Java for Leopard at this point is bad enough. The fact that Apple apparently backed out on Java 6 shipping with Leopard is also bad. But once again, the part I have really had it with, is the unprecedented arrogance of Steve Jobs and company, and the fact that they seem to feel they have absolutely no obligation to communicate to their customers why they changed their plans, why the yanked software that used to be available, and when or even if they will remedy that. Well, here is my response to that attitude:
Sorry Steve Jobs, but since you've got no time for your customers, and you've got no time to explain to them why plans changed, and when or even if the situation will be remedied, I've got no time for your products anymore.
So long Apple. The party's over.
203 replies so far (
Post your own)
Re: So Long Apple. The Party's Over
You know, every time I look at Steve Jobs, and Apple's practices, I say I'll take Bill Gates and his Microsoft evil empire any day over Steve Jobs'. This arrogant jerk PC market share is not even 5% (for a good reason) and is acting like this. Can you imagine the tyranny, and the evilness of a Apple dominated world? I guess this guy never learns. Just like before, he's taking Apple back once again to being an irrelevant player in the PC market.Re: So Long Apple. The Party's Over
This is unacceptable, i wonder if there is any way to actually let Java Developers knock on Apple's doors and ask what's going on with Java (no long ago iJobs said Macintosh will be the best platform for Java developers, i bet that day he had one of his hippie's flash back).I don't really want to run Linux or Solaris on my MB under VMware most of my day, because that wouldn't make any sense at all, I want a Mac that does what is supposed to, work and no play with iLook, iSpace and so on...
I wish i didn't order Leopard, so i could've spared my £139 british pound, what a RIP OFF Apple,
thank you very much!!
Re: So Long Apple. The Party's Over
Even worse, apparently they(apple) don't know how to write message: have a look at the left dialog, it spells 'Information Mesage'I mean, if these is not a bad joke and the shots are real..
Re: So Long Apple. The Party's Over
> I wish i didn't order Leopard, so i could've spared> my £139 british pound, what a RIP OFF Apple,
> thank you very much!!
In the EU you can send it back the first 14days
lg Clemens
Re: So Long Apple. The Party's Over
Thanks,I though it wouldn't apply to softwares.
This is great !
I think this is a great time! Apple really never had a bug for bug compatible JVM.I think that there is something wrong with your analysis of the situation. Java6 not being available by Apple is NOT Apple's problem. Apple is showing that it couldn't care less! I hope that it is sufficiently clear for everyone now.
The REAL problem is for the Java platform and the write once run everywhere motto. Now the Java platform (version 6) is NOT compatible with Apple anymore.
So what are we going to do? Are we going to beg Apple again and again to have the JVM updated with a more or less compatible/crappy version? Are we going to beg Sun to support Mac OS X ?
My opinion is that we've tried the former many times before and it just doesn't work. Apple can be interested at times in Java and then it loses interest for few years.
Apple would actually do us a favor if it dropped Java completely. Please Apple, erase Java from every mac on the next Software Update!
Re: So Long Apple. The Party's Over
I remember when I first learned to program in Java (on a Windows PC), I bought one of the very first iMacs primarily so I could try out Java's write-once-run-anywhere promise. It did work, but I remember the Apple Java implementation being buggy, awkward, and six months behind (at least). So when Steve Jobs announced not-so-long-ago that Apple would make the best platform for Java developers I thought...great, but...I don't believe you. Sometimes my cynicism gets in the way, but not this time.http://www.jfree.org
Re: So Long Apple. The Party's Over
Number me among the Mac-using Java developers who have become extremely annoyed with the way Apple has handled Java for Mac.I haven't really looked at the open-source developments with Java. What are the obstacles to an open-source JDK on Mac, at this point?
Re: So Long Apple. The Party's Over
> Even worse, apparently they(apple) don't know how to> write message: have a look at the left dialog, it
> spells 'Information Mesage'
That was a typo on my part. When I typed the text into the parameter string for JOptionPane. But the screen shots are real. I just made a typo in the string in my code.
Re: So Long Apple. The Party's Over
That message string that says "mesage" doesn't come from the runtime, but it's the message string you pass to option pane. Just a simple mistake by the author.http://sellmic.com
Re: So Long Apple. The Party's Over
> I haven't really looked at the open-source developments with Java. What are the obstacles to an open-source JDK on Mac, at this point?It shouldn't be too bad, at least on x64/86 since there's a hotspot implementation there. There will be issues
with AWT and Swing's native L&F.
As for Java2D, the OpenGL pipeline coupled with
the software pipeline should just work.
Not sure about the rest.
Dmtiri
Java2D Team
Re: So Long Apple. The Party's Over
I'm not sure, but as far as I know if you haven't opened the package it should be no problem - furthermore you've a reason to send it back (not just only "id didn't like it").lg Clemens
Re: So Long Apple. The Party's Over
I almost sell my self for a Mac, I was planing to buy a MacPro and get Leopard this november but I'm lucky I didnt, I'm a Java developer and Linux user. But again as someone said apple is doing again as before they never learn and specialy that arrogant of Steve Jobs. I don't know what he want to prove doing this shit. The only way I see it is if Sun can get the control of Java for the Mac as they have with Windows and Linux. OpenJDK I think will be a huge effort or look into IceTea implementation and check it if can port it to Mac. But as Mr.Gosling said apple Mac computers are not anymore the dream machines for Java developers, it doesnt matter anymore.Re: So Long Apple. The Party's Over
Is there any way that SUN could intervene in that current mess ? The lack of Java 6, and any news about it can't be good to the Java name.Also, does Apple's JVM should pass some standard compatibility test ?
For my part, I would like to see some discussions on the possibility of having an open-source jvm/jdk on Mac; Apple clearly can't be trusted with Java. Their incompetence handling Java is a real insult to the Java community.