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Recent discussions about the support for Java 6 on Leopard have resulted in a colorful debate. The debate seems to have focused around three themes. In the first place, consternation around the question of the lack of Java 6 support on Leopard. While focusing on cool iPhones and other consumer goodies, what investment has Apple put in Java? To what extent does it care about Java at all? Has it decided to focus purely on consumers and abandon developers altogether?
Flowing from these questions, comes a second batch of concerns, around the question of "who is responsible". Apple? Or Sun?
Ben Galbraith's
blog (some of it in response to
Mike's article here on Javalobby
) has a lot of interesting discussion around this, with a number of diverging points, one of which is "I suspect as time passes, more improvements will come out and folks will understand just how busy the Apple Java team has been." In other words, at least part of the argument here is that one needs to give Apple time and that Apple is committed to Java, despite its silence.
But, in the third place, it's that silence that's the most confusing, because until it ends, we're all pretty much guessing. The question of responsibility,
in this poll on java.net
, indicates that of 1068 people, 49.1% believe that it is Sun who needs to carry the can in terms of delivering the goods. Whether that is true or not, the silence on
the Mac OS X Leopard page
remains deafening. Lots of big flashy pics, but what's the story about Java? The intervention by
James Gosling
posits that support for Java on the Mac is not done by Sun "because Apple wanted to do it... They've wanted to do all sorts of customization and integration that only they could do - because they own the OS."
Through all these mixed interpretations... one man steps forward: Henry Story (
interviewed here a few weeks ago on Javalobby
). What does he propose? Read his blog entry from yesterday,
Vote for Java6 on Leopard!
. "Following the noble example given to us by Nova Spivack, when he asked for people to make their voice heard in support of the Burmese people and
got some real results
, let us do the same to help Apple make the right decision." By putting the following string in your blog, or other on-line information, all those who would like to make their voice heard to Apple, about the lack of Java6 support, will be findable on the web:
13949712720901ForOSX
The first part of the string is the decimal notation for 0xCAFEBABE (although it turns out to be slightly incorrect and therefore even more unique), the magic cookie for JavaClass files (
more on that here
). When the string is searched for, by means of
putting it into a Google search
, for example, all those wanting to "motivate the managers at Apple to invest more time on Java and be more open about their plans with the community" can be identified in one go. That's a great idea and I'm hoping Henry will come up with some handy semantic web techniques to make use of the data that will be gathered in this way! Let's support this endeavor to help Java6 find its way onto Leopard soon.
> That's a great idea and I'm
> hoping Henry will come up with some handy semantic
> web techniques to make use of the data that will be
> gathered in this way!
I am not fluent in xslt transforms and javascript interactions. But I suppose one could write a piece of javascript that would
take the results of the google query http://www.google.com/search?q=13949712720901ForOSX and display them in some more compact tabular format, which I could then past into the original blog entry. Does Google
make an XML version of its results available?
This would be more Web2.0 than Web3.0ish, as we would be mining specifically information from one service, namely Google. It's not hyperdata.
But no problem. We don't need more generality yet.
Though it is clear how this method could be nicely generalised using the semantic web. Using bug Ontologies such as Baetle [1], people could publish bugs about projects they discovered directly on their own web site, wherever that was. People around the web could post comments on it, by publishing those again on their own web site. It needs more thought, but one can see how this would allow for a distributed web based bug database to be created...
thanks for voting. It would be useful if you posted a link to an explanation too, so that people who come across your blog can understand what they are looking at. Also ask others to vote too. Don't forget: Language is a Virus
I applaud this positive initiative.
Although I support this fun initiative, it seems there's a lot of drama and drama queens for that matter around this topic:)
I have a distro of linux for business and OS X for pleasure. It's the best of both worlds really.
Apple does not support Java because to quote Jobs:
nobody is using Java anymore.
I have just finished what is my last Java gig. I was the only Java programmer in a C++/C#/.NET shop. The reason I was let go was quote:
we are eliminating the web services position and therefore...
. Back home: a quick numbers comparison by entering .net vs java in the Monster search dialog returns the grim news. Corporate America has finally manipulated I.T depts. and programmers with technology and the H1B visa to the point that I am forced to go with the flow or lose everything. I have struggled for 10 years to constrain myself as a
Java-only
programmer. This is not a reality that can be maintained. I am now looking for a entry-level .NET/C# position and I won't be dealing with Java except as a hobby and continue to maintain my Java based blog.
Is it time to assess the success or otherwise of the '13949712720901ForOSX' campaign? And what are the criteria for doing so, anyway? One is obviously the (rather unmeasurable) extent to which the meme has been picked up, and this, despite the problem of what to measure it
against
(i.e., if 100 people include it in their blog, what does that mean? 100 as against
what
), I think it is pretty clear that '13949712720901ForOSX' has entered the mainstream blogging community, just go to a
google search
and you'll see for yourself.
Simon is
Tracking the success of the campaign"
. Using
Goolge BlogSearch
, as it gives a better quality lower estimate, we have 71 blog posts as of Nov 8, 2007 morning Sao Paulo time. (Don't rely on the first page estimate. You have to go to the end of the results to get a real value). There are of course a lot of other articles written on the subject that did not get tagged with "13949712720901ForOSX", so let us say that we have close to 200 people that have voiced their concern on the subject.
I don't know how that compares to other campaigns. I think people make mistakes counting pages there too, so one has to be careful.
As to estimating the success of the campaign, it looks like a lot of developers are still confident that Apple will release Java 6 in due course, me among them. My guess is that the longer this takes, the more the campaign will garner votes. Apple still has not made any clear open statement on the subject. I just find,
and have for a long time
, Apple's secrecy around an open platform to be the most off putting aspect of working on a mac. So I for one really welcome any open source attempt to
begin porting the open JDK to OSX
. That should give developers the ability to play with the latest and greatest Java at all times. The secrecy surrounding the official Java version would then be a lot less important, if not comical.
Well it has removed the topic from the Apple Java Dev discussion forum, so that means that issues for improving the JDK can be discussed more calmly.
I wonder how Apple thinks it is going to get into the enterprise space with this kind of secrecy. Enterprises cannot put their faith like this in one company, and Apple is clearly asking for pure faith here. Managers in large enterprises tend not to blog, they make decisions: buy or don't. Hopefully some of the don't buy decisions will make their way back to Apple.
Java Word of the Day: 13949712720901ForOSX
URL: Vote for Java 6 on Leopard
At 11:17 AM on Nov 3, 2007, Geertjan wrote:
Fresh Jobs for Developers Post a job opportunity
Recent discussions about the support for Java 6 on Leopard have resulted in a colorful debate. The debate seems to have focused around three themes. In the first place, consternation around the question of the lack of Java 6 support on Leopard. While focusing on cool iPhones and other consumer goodies, what investment has Apple put in Java? To what extent does it care about Java at all? Has it decided to focus purely on consumers and abandon developers altogether?
Flowing from these questions, comes a second batch of concerns, around the question of "who is responsible". Apple? Or Sun? Ben Galbraith's blog (some of it in response to Mike's article here on Javalobby ) has a lot of interesting discussion around this, with a number of diverging points, one of which is "I suspect as time passes, more improvements will come out and folks will understand just how busy the Apple Java team has been." In other words, at least part of the argument here is that one needs to give Apple time and that Apple is committed to Java, despite its silence.
But, in the third place, it's that silence that's the most confusing, because until it ends, we're all pretty much guessing. The question of responsibility, in this poll on java.net , indicates that of 1068 people, 49.1% believe that it is Sun who needs to carry the can in terms of delivering the goods. Whether that is true or not, the silence on the Mac OS X Leopard page remains deafening. Lots of big flashy pics, but what's the story about Java? The intervention by James Gosling posits that support for Java on the Mac is not done by Sun "because Apple wanted to do it... They've wanted to do all sorts of customization and integration that only they could do - because they own the OS."
Through all these mixed interpretations... one man steps forward: Henry Story ( interviewed here a few weeks ago on Javalobby ). What does he propose? Read his blog entry from yesterday, Vote for Java6 on Leopard! . "Following the noble example given to us by Nova Spivack, when he asked for people to make their voice heard in support of the Burmese people and got some real results , let us do the same to help Apple make the right decision." By putting the following string in your blog, or other on-line information, all those who would like to make their voice heard to Apple, about the lack of Java6 support, will be findable on the web:
13949712720901ForOSX
The first part of the string is the decimal notation for 0xCAFEBABE (although it turns out to be slightly incorrect and therefore even more unique), the magic cookie for JavaClass files ( more on that here ). When the string is searched for, by means of putting it into a Google search , for example, all those wanting to "motivate the managers at Apple to invest more time on Java and be more open about their plans with the community" can be identified in one go. That's a great idea and I'm hoping Henry will come up with some handy semantic web techniques to make use of the data that will be gathered in this way! Let's support this endeavor to help Java6 find its way onto Leopard soon.
9 replies so far (
Post your own)
Re: Java Word of the Day: 13949712720901ForOSX
Added on http://www.galan.de/blogI don't own or work with an Apple OS, but I think Apple has definitly to move.
Re: Java Word of the Day: 13949712720901ForOSX
> That's a great idea and I'm> hoping Henry will come up with some handy semantic
> web techniques to make use of the data that will be
> gathered in this way!
I am not fluent in xslt transforms and javascript interactions. But I suppose one could write a piece of javascript that would
take the results of the google query http://www.google.com/search?q=13949712720901ForOSX
and display them in some more compact tabular format, which I could then past into the original blog entry. Does Google
make an XML version of its results available?
This would be more Web2.0 than Web3.0ish, as we would be mining specifically information from one service, namely Google. It's not hyperdata.
But no problem. We don't need more generality yet.
Though it is clear how this method could be nicely generalised using the semantic web. Using bug Ontologies such as Baetle [1], people could publish bugs about projects they discovered directly on their own web site, wherever that was. People around the web could post comments on it, by publishing those again on their own web site. It needs more thought, but one can see how this would allow for a distributed web based bug database to be created...
[1] http://code.google.com/p/baetle/
Re: Java Word of the Day: 13949712720901ForOSX
Same thought. Java is important!http://www.xs4all.nl/~keeskuip/attaqueer/index.htm
Re: Java Word of the Day: 13949712720901ForOSX
> Same thought. Java is important!Hi Kees,
thanks for voting. It would be useful if you posted a link to an explanation too, so that people who come across your blog can understand what they are looking at. Also ask others to vote too. Don't forget: Language is a Virus
http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/language_is_a_virus
Henry
Re: Java Word of the Day: 13949712720901ForOSX
Let's bring this Digg story to the front page:http://www.jroller.com/jsight/entry/hey_apple_how_about_a
Re: Java Word of the Day: 13949712720901ForOSX
I applaud this positive initiative.Although I support this fun initiative, it seems there's a lot of drama and drama queens for that matter around this topic:)
I have a distro of linux for business and OS X for pleasure. It's the best of both worlds really.
Re: Java Word of the Day: 13949712720901ForOSX
Apple does not support Java because to quote Jobs: nobody is using Java anymore. I have just finished what is my last Java gig. I was the only Java programmer in a C++/C#/.NET shop. The reason I was let go was quote: we are eliminating the web services position and therefore... . Back home: a quick numbers comparison by entering .net vs java in the Monster search dialog returns the grim news. Corporate America has finally manipulated I.T depts. and programmers with technology and the H1B visa to the point that I am forced to go with the flow or lose everything. I have struggled for 10 years to constrain myself as a Java-only programmer. This is not a reality that can be maintained. I am now looking for a entry-level .NET/C# position and I won't be dealing with Java except as a hobby and continue to maintain my Java based blog.Re: Java Word of the Day: 13949712720901ForOSX
Is it time to assess the success or otherwise of the '13949712720901ForOSX' campaign? And what are the criteria for doing so, anyway? One is obviously the (rather unmeasurable) extent to which the meme has been picked up, and this, despite the problem of what to measure it against (i.e., if 100 people include it in their blog, what does that mean? 100 as against what ), I think it is pretty clear that '13949712720901ForOSX' has entered the mainstream blogging community, just go to a google search and you'll see for yourself.Re: Java Word of the Day: 13949712720901ForOSX
Simon is Tracking the success of the campaign" . Using Goolge BlogSearch , as it gives a better quality lower estimate, we have 71 blog posts as of Nov 8, 2007 morning Sao Paulo time. (Don't rely on the first page estimate. You have to go to the end of the results to get a real value). There are of course a lot of other articles written on the subject that did not get tagged with "13949712720901ForOSX", so let us say that we have close to 200 people that have voiced their concern on the subject.I don't know how that compares to other campaigns. I think people make mistakes counting pages there too, so one has to be careful.
As to estimating the success of the campaign, it looks like a lot of developers are still confident that Apple will release Java 6 in due course, me among them. My guess is that the longer this takes, the more the campaign will garner votes. Apple still has not made any clear open statement on the subject. I just find, and have for a long time , Apple's secrecy around an open platform to be the most off putting aspect of working on a mac. So I for one really welcome any open source attempt to begin porting the open JDK to OSX . That should give developers the ability to play with the latest and greatest Java at all times. The secrecy surrounding the official Java version would then be a lot less important, if not comical.
Well it has removed the topic from the Apple Java Dev discussion forum, so that means that issues for improving the JDK can be discussed more calmly.
I wonder how Apple thinks it is going to get into the enterprise space with this kind of secrecy. Enterprises cannot put their faith like this in one company, and Apple is clearly asking for pure faith here. Managers in large enterprises tend not to blog, they make decisions: buy or don't. Hopefully some of the don't buy decisions will make their way back to Apple.