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Eclipse RCP "clearly superior" to NetBeans?? May I disagree?

URL: eWeek

At 7:17 AM on Nov 8, 2007, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:

On the latest issue of eWeek , Mike Milinkovic, director of Eclipse Foundation, briefly compared NetBeans with Eclipse . Among other things, he said:

"I think the thing [people at Sun] oversell themselves on is the [NetBeans] platform; Eclipse is clearly superior,"... "It's not Eclipse versus NetBeans. That's an apples and oranges comparison because NetBeans is a Sun product, not an open community. It is a Sun product that they sell support for."

I'm always a bit surprised when I read "something is CLEARLY superior" in a scientific/technologic context, with no arguments about such a strong assertion :-O. Facts are expected here - and, furthermore, I don't expect that any major comparison between two excellent products such as NetBeans and Eclipse can ever be so clear to achieve unanimous approval, because there's always a subjective component; every heads see things in a different perspective. But even for making a subjective opinion one needs some facts.

For instance, my personal experience is exactly the opposite. To make a long story short, I've started focusing deeper on desktop technologies about four years ago, mainly by working on a project that initially started for fun and experimenting (my long tine background was more on the server side). At the time I was reather frustrated by the lack of advanced components in Swing and the lack of a framework - ending up in writing a messy framework of mine that was eating up all my spare time. Since at the time I was a happy Eclipse IDE user, I started studying Eclipse RCP since I felt it could help me. After a few weeks of experimenting I gave up, for a basic objective reason (I was frustrated at the thought of studying a completely new API - SWT - other than Swing) and some subjective reasons (I didn't like the Eclipse RCP APIs at all).

After almost giving up with my project, I gave it a last chance in 2006 when NetBeans 5 came out. Not only NetBeans 5 (today 6) gave me the capability of working with Swing, thus maximizing my learning ROI, but I found a rather good set of RCP APIs upon which I completely redesigned my application. I was able to use SwingLabs and the TimingFramework with no hassles, as well as customize the look and feel to taylor my needs (including the use of Quaqua to fit at the best the integration with Mac OS X). The point is that my application is about photography and targetted at end users, so a cool graphic design is as important as the software design (even heard of Romain Guy ?), especially if Mac OS X is one of the targets. If you look at the screenshots of some NetBeans RCP applications, you can see that mine stands out for its specific look and feel (that - BTW - it's far from being complete). And there's a pretty good choice in this scenario, as other third-party contributors provided configurable Swing Look and Feels with specific integration for NetBeans, such as Kirill Grouchnikov 's Substance . By contrast, all the Eclipse RCP applications I'm aware of share the same Eclipse look and feel - which is quite boring in some contexts (this of course doesn't detract a bit from their engineering quality).

So, two years later, my subjective adversion with respect to SWT has turned out to be backed by a more objective rationale: to me the capability of integrating Swing and third parties' Swing stuff is fundamental. I see that the same thing seems to be an important point for commercial products in the same field, such as LightZ one by LightCrafts which is written with Swing (and AFAIU - didn't try it - the latest version is based on NetBeans RCP as well). That's why I think NetBeans RCP is superior to Eclipse RCP.

Of course this is still my personal perspective, nevertheless is the kind of rationale I expect to support or confute a comparison. :-) Others of course think the opposite - but may I know what are their rationales?
1 . At 7:28 AM on Nov 8, 2007, Niklas Mehner wrote:
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Re: Eclipse RCP "clearly superior" to NetBeans?? May I disagree?

Of course you may disagree. All these attempts to win over the "blogosphere" or create a bit of publicity are a bit lame and annoying.

I tend to try and ignore all these bits of information. If the people trying to promote a product get too annoying (e.g. RoR or JBoss some time ago) it actually keeps me away from the promoted product.

(and after all everybody knows that Intellij IDEA is the only IDE you can use to do real work. Who wants to know about eclipse and netbeans? ;)
Niklas Mehner - Developer 7G
2 . At 8:39 AM on Nov 8, 2007, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
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Correction

I have to correct myself - LightZone, even the latest 3.1, is not based on NetBeans RCP. But it does use Quaqua, Substance, so in the end it's a full-fledged Swing application - and this makes my point, Java desktop applications with a cool l&f use Swing.
Fabrizio Giudici, TidalWave - We make Java work. Everywhere.
weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici, www.tidalwave.it/blog
Member of the NetBeans Dream Team.
3 . At 9:13 AM on Nov 8, 2007, Raphael Valyi wrote:
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Re: Eclipse RCP "clearly superior" to NetBeans?? May I disagree?

Netbeans is good on Swing why Eclipse is good on the platform architecture.

SWT:
Generally speaking I think the Swing architecture is imcomparably better to the SWT one. Just take the SWT class with all its non ensapsulated constants, or the event waiting loops in the SWT components and you see how badly designed SWT is. Not to tell about the low componet modularity are the impossiblility to run in a security sandbox. Finally I think SWT is only worth it - and is the best solution then - if you just want a few native buttons and windows.


Eclipse perspectives:
On the other hand QSGI and RCP are incredibly better designed than the Netbeans platform. the plugin dependencies are just better handled. But most importantly, Netbeans can't scale as a large platform because it misses the perspective concept. You can install 20 Eclipse plugins but you'll never be able to install 20 Netbeans plugins. And that's also true that Eclipse RCP is more open and better documented even if the licensing is almost the same as Netbeans.

My 2 cents,

Raphaël Valyi.
4 . At 9:23 AM on Nov 8, 2007, Andrew McVeigh DeveloperZone Top 100 wrote:
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Re: Eclipse RCP "clearly superior" to NetBeans?? May I disagree?

> You can
> install 20 Eclipse plugins but you'll never be able
> to install 20 Netbeans plugins. And that's also true

if you managed to install 20 3rd party plugins (extensions) and you can get them all to work together without causing errors, you are 1 step forward from me.

Andrew
5 . At 9:51 AM on Nov 8, 2007, Mark Haniford wrote:
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Yippe Hooray: Been a while since we've have an IDE flamewar.

I've been a longtime Eclipse user (mostly for non-Java stuff), and a big fan of the native fidelity (yeah native fonts), but recently I've been trying out Netbeans 6.0 betas, I have to say that I'm pretty impressed.

With Java 6, most of my fonts complaints are marginal (still not as good as Cleartype, but I can deal). Eclipse has always had a wacky interface. Netbeans just seems cleaner and I'm loving the vi and Ruby plugins.

There's a bad reason (not because of MyEclipse), but why MyEclipse is cleaning up. The plugins are just a mess and you end up with 4 or 5 different versions of Eclipse on your drive. That's fine, but obviously things could be better.

I still think Eclipse is a great platform, but it's just no longer leaps and bounds better than Netbeans (if at all).
6 . At 9:53 AM on Nov 8, 2007, Jess Holle wrote:
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Re: Eclipse RCP "clearly superior" to NetBeans?? May I disagree?

Eclipse perspectives seem to be a love 'em or hate 'em thing. I know a lot of non-Eclipse users who are non-Eclipse users simply because of Eclipse's perspectives, yet Eclipse users seem to think they're great.
7 . At 9:55 AM on Nov 8, 2007, Raphael Valyi wrote:
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Re: Eclipse RCP "clearly superior" to NetBeans?? May I disagree?

> > You can
> > install 20 Eclipse plugins but you'll never be
> able
> > to install 20 Netbeans plugins. And that's also
> true
>
> if you managed to install 20 3rd party plugins
> (extensions) and you can get them all to work
> together without causing errors, you are 1 step
> forward from me.

I mean getting the right Eclipse plugins working together can be tough, but then it works while the lack of perspective support in Netbeans makes it impossible to add lots of 3rd party features in the same plateform, it doesn't scale. Aslo, yes, I'm working with nearly 20 3rd party plugins with Eclipse, ranging from Jadclipse to Rails dev (even if Netbeans is much stronger on Rails dev).

But, what is true is that the Eclipse plugin package system is still not a first class package system even if its better than the Netbeans one. For instance I can't explain why say Debian with little resources si doing this much better than Eclipse with IBM behind it, if one can explain me that, please go on.

Cheers,

Raphaël Valyi.
8 . At 10:06 AM on Nov 8, 2007, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
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Re: Eclipse RCP "clearly superior" to NetBeans?? May I disagree?

Some points:

1) I'm not going to have an IDE flame war :-) Indeed I like to keep everything on a rational perspective.
2) I'm not talking primarily on the IDE now (development environment), rather on the RCP (the platform over which you build other applications). Clearly some issues - as plugins, dependencies, ect... - are common
3) In spite of some people saying that there's no real community behind NetBeans, indeed people are contributing code and plugins. :-) For instance, there's a Perspective Plugin for NetBeans: http://contrib.netbeans.org/perspective - I don't like perspectives so I never tried it, but I'd be happy if Raphael tried it and reported on it.
4) I'd like to know in which aspects the dependency mechanism of Eclipse is superior to the one of NetBeans. Things can be always be improved, NetBeans is listening.
Fabrizio Giudici, TidalWave - We make Java work. Everywhere.
weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici, www.tidalwave.it/blog
Member of the NetBeans Dream Team.
9 . At 10:25 AM on Nov 8, 2007, Tim Boudreau DeveloperZone Top 100 wrote:
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Re: Eclipse RCP "clearly superior" to NetBeans?? May I disagree?

You can install 20 Eclipse plugins but you'll never be able to install 20 Netbeans plugins.


This is utter nonsense. There are several hundred plugins in a typical NetBeans install; and I commonly run NetBeans with many additional plugins.


The NetBeans window system uses window groups and project groups to provide the value of perspectives, in a way that does not force new users to learn a whole new, non-intuitive concept. Some people like perspectives, and that's fine - I've seen demos of Eclipse where the user had fifty or sixty perspectives. The problem with the concept is that it's really only friendly to engineers, who think of their UI as a tree and will grasp the notion of adding one more layer of nodes at the top of that tree. Non-engineers are simply, by-and-large, not going to get that.


Re more open, I think there are about 500,000 people on the NetBeans mailing lists who might disagree with you.

Tim Boudreau
NetBeans.org
Evangelist/Senior Staff Engineer, Sun Microsystems
10 . At 10:36 AM on Nov 8, 2007, Tim Boudreau DeveloperZone Top 100 wrote:
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Re: Eclipse RCP "clearly superior" to NetBeans?? May I disagree?

That's an apples and oranges comparison because NetBeans is a Sun product, not an open community. It is a Sun product that they sell support for.


Wow, that's pure undiluted FUD. And there are an awful lot of companies and individuals contributing to NetBeans who would be very surprised to find out it is not an open community. Fabrizio, do you find it not to be an open community?


Sure, Sun sells support on NetBeans. So can anybody else who wants to. It makes a heck of a lot more sense to people to say "get NetBeans and if you want support you can get that" than the alternative - creating a special Sun-branded "distribution" that support is sold on. Why give the same bits two names? We're contributing QA to the NetBeans project, so the bits that come from it are ones we know we can support. Why confuse people? For years nobody understood the distinction between Forte for Java (NetBeans with a different splash screen) and NetBeans - and rightly so - calling the same bits two different names just so you can call one a "product" and the other not-a-product is just dumb.


Anyway, I think the way Mike is using the word "community" is the usual doublespeak - defining community as "people who gave money to the Eclipse foundation". I don't see how that makes it more validly a community - if anything, that makes it a paid society like the ACM or any other industry organization. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't see how one can argue that an organization that does charge people at the door is a community, but one that doesn't (NetBeans) is not - which is something he has repeatedly implied.

Tim Boudreau
NetBeans.org
Evangelist/Senior Staff Engineer, Sun Microsystems
11 . At 11:11 AM on Nov 8, 2007, Thomas Mäder DeveloperZone Top 100 wrote:
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Re: Eclipse RCP "clearly superior" to NetBeans?? May I disagree?

>
That's an apples and oranges comparison
> because NetBeans is a Sun product, not an open
> community. It is a Sun product that they sell support
> for.

>


> Wow, that's pure undiluted FUD. And there are an
> awful lot of companies and individuals contributing
> to NetBeans who would be very surprised to find out
> it is not an open community. Fabrizio, do you find
> it not to be an open community?
>



Sorry, but the difference is in the legal setup: in order to contribute to Netbeans I have to grant Sun a license to my code, who then relicenses the code to everyone else under a different license. This is asymmetric, since Sun gets way more rights in my code than I get in Suns code (says the contributor agreement, no?)

With Eclipse, the setup is symmetric. Everybody licenses the contributed code to everyone else (including the Eclipse foundation) under the EPL. That is a level playing field.

12 . At 11:21 AM on Nov 8, 2007, Muchacho wrote:
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Re: Eclipse RCP "clearly superior" to NetBeans?? May I disagree?

I was a huge fan of Eclipse. But 3 months ago I downloaded Netbeans 6 to see how improved in the last years. Gues what it has the factor Wow, I was amazed how cool IDE it's Netbeans, Now I'm huge fan of Netbeans.

About SWT it's an ugly API, Bad designed, horrible and slow on this days, I never used it when I used eclipse for something serious, Swing Rocks and it is getting really fast and good looking. Also Im waiting the consumer jre, Swing will be more great.
13 . At 11:22 AM on Nov 8, 2007, Muchacho wrote:
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Re: Eclipse RCP "clearly superior" to NetBeans?? May I disagree?

Netbeans 6 is now GPL
14 . At 12:49 PM on Nov 8, 2007, Will Hartung DeveloperZone Top 100 wrote:
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Re: Eclipse RCP "clearly superior" to NetBeans?? May I disagree?

> Sure, Sun sells support on NetBeans. So can anybody
> else who wants to. It makes a heck of a lot more
> sense to people to say "get NetBeans and if you
> want support you can get that" than the
> alternative - creating a special Sun-branded
> "distribution" that support is sold on.
> Why give the same bits two names?

Just to be complete here Tim, that's exactly what Sun is doing with the server products (GlassFish Sun Java Appplication Server, OpenSSO Access Manager are the glaring examples).

They're not doing that here with NetBeans tho.

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