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Report from Redmond - By Rick Ross
At 9:59 AM on Mar 24, 2005, Matthew Schmidt wrote:
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Re: Report from Redmond - By Rick Ross
All in all, I would say the trip was pretty pleasant. The people we meant were genuinely interested in hearing what everyone had to say and had a surprising amount of knowledge about the Java industry. We should always keep an eye on what the guys on the other side of the fence are working on, and I hope that everyone tries to keep that in mind as they listen to the various reports about the summit.-Matt
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Re: Report from Redmond - By Rick Ross
I have been an Open Source and Java advocate for a long time and have good relations with Microsoft Philippines (even if I bash them ever so often). Anyway, I agree that we should get the best out of these companies, IBM, Sun, Microsoft, etc.I have used their development tools and although I have not seen how Java Studio Creator works, I can say that the MSFT dev tools are one of the best available tools out there. If only these tools support Java... and run on Linux and Mac.
One thing, though, I am not sure how MSFT feels about Java at this point since they have VB.net and C#. How can they support Java developers without undermining their VB.net/C# efforts?
Re: Report from Redmond - By Rick Ross
You might as well seek a new name for this organization.For me, Java is more than a neat language or neat tools or any other cool technology.
Java is a philosophy that means my software works on many platforms (combinations of OS and browser) and that I can use the same language on both client and server machines to create dynamic integrated applications.
Microsoft has a single goal: get developers to write Windows-specific code. Given their situation, this goal makes sense. For a very large body of developers, it makes no sense.
Until Microsoft starts making cross-platform tools that do not encourage (or force) developers to write just for Windows, they're not our friend no matter how powerful or cool their technologies.
You repeatedly mention how fantastic the new Microsoft technologies are. So what! If it doesn't run on Macs and Unix boxes, it's useless for me.
So decide whether you're lobbying for Java and its philosophy or for neat new technologies.
Re: Report from Redmond - By Rick Ross
I have been in IT for over 30 years. I have seen DEC, IBM, Microsoft and Sun wow the "audience". They were all done by very sincere and well meaning developers.Like you, I have been very impressed by the new features, ideas, and energy of forums like the one you have attended.
As a developer and development manager, is not the cool stuff from Microsoft, its the "train" that you must get on to be successful. Each new technology requires a new upgrade of Office, then Exchange, then Windows XP, etc. The amount of IT time spent manging this technology exceeds the benefits in many cases.
For the developers to be successful, they cannot require their customers to be on the Microsoft train.
Although this is true of IBM, Sun and others, but Microsoft has tuned this "forced upgrade" into a science.
In my "vision", the next great technology will be software that will help us manage the train and determine which technology makes the best business sense to adopt. We have plenty of tools, but lack the "best practices" of when some tools should be used versus others.
I also contend that all tools should be available for the developers. Hopefully the use of the tool does not require a lot of baggage for the train.
Hope this response gives some "food for thought".
Re: Report from Redmond - By Rick Ross
Completely agree. Throughout its history Microsoft have continuously proven they only care for monopolizing markets - first it was the desktop one, then the server and game console one (both attempts were fortunately unsuccessful), now the developers' market; in the near future - the automated in-home appliances market and the mobile phone one. It is the simple law of capitalism - become bigger or die.I am not a religious zealot of any kind, and I pride myself in my being an open-minded person. However, in the Microsoft case, there is no room for open-mindedness. It is about allowing yourself to be lured to the dark side. It is good that we have brave people willing to expose themselves to Microsoft's sugar-coated temptations in order to understand them better; it is very bad, however, when those people fall in that meticulously prepared trap.
I have to admit I probably missed some of the points of the talk (for some .jsp reason I can't open the pdf). My general feeling, however, is that good people are being tempted simply because they are curious and open-minded. Once again, I urge everybody to think twice before tying themselves with a particular provider (especially Microsoft), no matter the perceived benefits.
Re: Report from Redmond
I agrre too.For Microsoft it is very hard to enhance cooperation without losing some developers or market share because MS is so dominant.
For a developper chosing a language, a platform implies a significant investement in time. I need to trust that the company developing the platform/language won't be evil to me and let me choose.
Microsoft is certainly doing a sincere effort in preaching cooperation for mutual benefit. Developers ar Microsoft are sincere I'm sure. However, serveral years down the road a Marketing guy at Microsoft will take a decision that will lock me in.
They've done it once and again in the past.
You can trust the developers at Microsoft but not Microsoft as a company. And guess what, developers are no the ones that give orders...
Microsoft made absolutely no clear promises, Rommel
Although it was very pleasant to speak with the various folks from Microsoft, I want to be unmistakably clear about a key point:Microsoft made no promises to behave differently.
Talk is cheap, and I won't believe anything is different until I see material action steps that occur as a result of all the "feel good" moments of diversity, peace, love & understanding.
Rick
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Harry, you may think I was encouraging something I am not
I love the passion and conviction in your clear tone, and I hope most of us share it. I know I do.Make no mistake, there has been no "sea change" here, and Microsoft made absolutely no promises that it would behave any differently towards Java developers than it has in the past. Sweet talk is easy, but we all need to see concrete and visible measures to address some of the problems that have chronically divided us from their platforms.
I have no idea whether Microsoft is willing to take those steps, and if you listen to my report you'll hear that I never suggest that they have changed or will change.
But how would a sea change begin, Harry? Don't we need to be willing to replace unknowing anger with an informed view of what Microsoft is doing now? DOn't we need to be willing, at least, to go into a room and have a civilized and mutually respecting discussion about what is not working in the present situation? Also, doesn't practicality suggest that we should know when and how our Java projects can interface with projects developed using Microsoft tools? In many businesses (most, I think) there is a mix of both technologies deployed.
Don't expect the name of Javalobby to change any time soon, and please don't be easily convinced that my personal convictions are any less passionate on these subjects than yours. I am encouraging mutual respect and a dialogue to keep the possibility for progress alive. Frozen hatred is not in the best interests of the Java developer community.
Rick
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Points well taken, John - it's nice to showcase our commonalities
I hear you, John. It's all fine and well for the Microsoft people to put their best foot forward and highlight our common interests as "developers" in the abstract sense of the term.But as soon as we put one foot onto that train you describe, we all know where it leads: proprietary lock-in.
I want it to be explicitly clear that I am NOT advocating any Java developer to abandon Java. I am only saying that we should consider, as a community, treating our peer developers in the Microsoft world and elsewhere with more respect and open-mindedness.
I tried several times to emphasize "cooperation" rather than "conversion", but I sense that message is getting lost in translation.
Rick
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Re: Report from Redmond - By Rick Ross
Rick, I'd like to thank you for putting the presentation together. While I'm not one of those Java developers that consider Microsoft the "evil empire" I certainly harbor a level of distrust for the company. I've investigated the .NET platform and am impressed overall with the technologies that it comprises. However, until (and unless) Microsoft itself provides a CLR for the major non-Windows platforms (much as Sun provides a JVM for those same platforms) I will always feel that level of distrust.Re: Avalon
Avalon concerns me.I think Avalon could be a "killer framework" that allows MS to take the desktop back towards pre-Web days. If they can successfully deliver a rich client framework that increases user expectations about what an Internet-enabled application should deliver, then they'll gain significant ground.
I don't have a problem with this, technically -- I think something like Avalon is a great stride forward. However, I want an Avalon that is cross-platform, like a web application, not an Avalon that only works on Windows.
Can this be done? Can the type of features Avalon offers be delivered in a multi-platform toolkit, or do the features require a tight coupling with the underlying OS?
As Java developers, what are our options if users start demanding Avalon-like features? Swing and WebStart? JDNC? Thinlets? Applets? JSF rendered to a different view layer (i.e. not JSP)? Something else?
Re: Report from Redmond - By Rick Ross
Greetings respected peers,I would like to say thank you to Rick for going to the event and providing us with the information and insight. I would like to also compliment Rick on his tack. No matter how well Microsoft is doing in providing tools they only provide vendor lock, no community control over specifications, and all with a hefty price tag and hiding its behavior behind the excuse of "we are a business". To be complimentary is, well, not something I believe I could do.
If I may I would like to express my view on Microsoft's reasons, blatant excuse, for doing business the way it does. It is Microsoft’s reasons for doing business as they do which is above all other reasons why I choose other platforms and methods.
The days of money justifies the means are gone! Our society has grown beyond the tyrannical perspective of money, using legislation. The legislation dictates that as a society we do not want capitalism to be a license to make money at any cost. We have expectations that a business should be ethical. One important aspect of ethics that Microsoft completely misses the boat on is being mutually beneficial. Microsoft certainly perpetrates itself as if it does but if you read the news stories concerning the numerous cases that Microsoft as been deliberately underhanded makes it clear that they will only be mutually beneficial if it results in more money for them.
There is no need to rant about Microsoft's lacking ethical standards since they are published about rather regularly. A simple Google search should provide a good amount of material. My point is that I can not do business with a company that lives by a double standard. Microsoft would destroy any employee that pulled on them the same tricks it has pulled on other businesses. They expect there employee's to be ethical while they behave surgically different. I do not want to be the next victim. I can not afford the cost of the trail to extract damages.
Other companies have operated successfully and been ethical, Sun, IBM, Texas Instruments (who formally manufactured PCs), ... (the list goes on).
Microsoft must change or they will spend more and more time in court while experiencing more and more attacks on their products. Even if they have finally gotten a clue about their security lackings.
I am sure this has all been said before but here it is again. I am in business to make money by providing genuine value. I would be unable to take pride in what I do otherwise. I wish Microsoft was!
Thank you for your time reading this and I hope to hear opinions agreeable or otherwise.
Paul
Re: Avalon
I'd love to hear more about the Avalon demonstration (no NDA, right?) and maybe get a pointer to any supporting material available on the web. With the rise of Firefox, and the current interest in Rich Client applications there is a new opening in the browser war, and an opportunity to move the common platform for developing applications to a fully standards-based, open one.Currently, my platform is half-open. The server side is non-proprietary, based on Java, but the client side is IE, and is very expensive for me to develop in. Previews of new client technologies like Avalon are a good source of requirements for the open source community to include in their efforts.
Count me among the most skeptical of Microsoft and its motivations. "Luke[Rick], its a trap!" I still feel very bitter from the abandonment of the Java platform by Microsoft in 1999. My team was heavily invested in Visual J, and had spent considerable time trying new technologies such as code-behind HTML, and Java called from ASP. I felt like the child caught between two parents in a nasty divorce (Sun & Microsoft). So consider me "estranged".
Re: Report from Redmond - By Rick Ross
Very well done report, Rick.I am not too happy with Java. Java is a technology that is more than ten years old. It still carries things from these "Applet" days, like a bad Classloader, etc. Back in the early days this might have been cool stuff, but today nobody should be excited about Java (e.g. EJBs, which is to me what MS COM was ten years ago).
I know that Microsoft is bad, but it has the money to hire the best software architects in the business. I don't know who designs the class libraries for Sun. But even the Java language on which these class libraries are built upon is utterly outdated.
From a *technical* perspective, .Net is far superior to Java. E.g. Java is not designed for hosting providers (Classloader instead of AppDomain), and it might never be. Java lacks a lot of feature for serious application development. I am not a MS fanboy, but I downloaded Visual Studio Express 2005 today and I am *really* impressed how simple things could be.
Today I think there is time for something new, maybe it is Mono (.Net on Linux). I invite everyone to support this project. How many people (IBM, etc.) tried to improve upon Java, but did not succeed because of Sun? Instead Sun created lots of ridiculously complex APIs (like NIO). I know that for now we have to live with it. But we should make progress again soon. I hope that Java will become Software History soon. It was a valueable contribution, but its time has come to retire. For the sake of all developers around the world!