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Is JSF ready to take on ASP.NET?
At 9:15 AM on Jun 4, 2005, Matthew Schmidt wrote:
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Re: Is JSF ready to take on ASP.NET?
Hi Chris,it's a very detailed article about the new features available right? Even more than the one that rick ross gave in the newsletter.
But again, the title confused everything... i think that "Is JSF IDE's ready to take on VS2005 [asp.net]?" would be a better name for this article.
Because the analysis you made wasn't only about the core jsf/.net technology comparison, but the tools that you could use right now or in the short term.
Sorry, but the .net guys always tried to argue against the j2ee [or anyone] technology based on his proprietary ide and that's not fair, so it's necessary to put this discussion in context, isn't?
Re: Is JSF ready to take on ASP.NET?
Omar,Yes you are right. This comparison gives more coverage to the JSF IDEs as opposed to the core technology itself such as the components.
I actually have plans to offer a more detailed components comparison soon... Of course right now things are quite busy in preparation for JavaOne..
-Chris
Re: Is JSF ready to take on ASP.NET?
Chris,I give five stars to the article for following reasons:
The article acknowledges the fact that Java technology products are trailing Microsoft’s Visual Studio in the market of IDE’s. Coming from the Oracle’s principal product manager, it gives me a hope that Jdeveloper’s product managers are working on changing the current situation. There is a danger that they just accept the role of “underdog” in this field and justify it with arguments: “..but our core-technology is superior…”. If a car salesman of a car with superior engine losses a customer because of the lack of cap-holders, the arguments type of “it wasn’t fair” are not changing the fact that the part of market share is lost.
The fact is that many of “agile” application developers out there do not even understand intricacies of the j2ee or .net. If they choose .net because of the “cap-holders” then large number of applications will be built on that platform and deficiencies of .net versus j2ee are going to be dealt with future versions of .net.
Oracle should add to its Jdeveloper product management team some people who are experts in Microsoft’s Visual Studio 2005. And, one day , one of them should write article “Superiority of Oracle Jdeveloper 1x compared to Microsoft Visual Studio 200x”
Boro
Re: Is JSF ready to take on ASP.NET?
have you delivered the Oracle's implementation of the JSF ? And if the answer is yes, is it possible to get it somehow ?thank you.
Re: Is JSF ready to take on ASP.NET?
> Chris,>
> I give five stars to the article for following
> reasons:
>
> The article acknowledges the fact that Java
> technology products are trailing Microsoft’s Visual
> Studio in the market of IDE’s. Coming from the
> Oracle’s principal product manager, it gives me a
> hope that Jdeveloper’s product managers are working
> on changing the current situation. There is a danger
> that they just accept the role of “underdog” in this
> field and justify it with arguments: “..but our
> core-technology is superior…”. If a car salesman of a
> car with superior engine losses a customer because of
> the lack of cap-holders, the arguments type of “it
> wasn’t fair” are not changing the fact that the part
> of market share is lost.
> The fact is that many of “agile” application
> developers out there do not even understand
> intricacies of the j2ee or .net. If they choose .net
> because of the “cap-holders” then large number of
> applications will be built on that platform and
> deficiencies of .net versus j2ee are going to be
> dealt with future versions of .net.
>
> Oracle should add to its Jdeveloper product
> management team some people who are experts in
> Microsoft’s Visual Studio 2005. And, one day , one of
> them should write article “Superiority of Oracle
> Jdeveloper 1x compared to Microsoft Visual Studio
> 200x”
>
> Boro
Thanks for the 5 stars.. Let me assure you that I as a product manager definitely don't feel resigned to "remain as underdog", but instead am doing my best to continue to help evolve JSF and IDEs (JDeveloper in particular) to be able to really take on the leading proprietary dev tool.
My little article hopefully both offers some good news that finally JSF IDEs are now in the same league as ASP, but we still have some work to do... but we're getting better..
They're in our cross-hairs and getting closer..
-Chris
Re: Is JSF ready to take on ASP.NET?
Are you referring to Oracle's ADF Faces? It's actually not an implementation, but a JSF component library.You can download early access version from the OTN JSF resources page:
http://www.oracle.com/technology/tech/java/jsf.html
Re: Is JSF ready to take on ASP.NET?
I'd like to note several problems I see with this comparison.First, this article ultimately compares high level feature abilities (i.e. can the IDE drag and drop components onto a canvas) without looking at the quality of the individual implementations. For example, we really can't just declare a tie between Microsoft and JSF IDEs based on the fact that JSF IDEs might have visual editing. VS 2003 and VS 2005 both have visual editing, but it wouldn't be fair to declare a tie between the two, as Microsoft has vastly improved their visual designer features since VS 2003. I guess if all the reader is looking for is the answer to "Can it do it or not?" and isn't concerned with the quality then this might be an adequate comparison. As reality would have it however, this comparison isn't practical.
A second problem I see with this sort of comparison is that it compares the JSF facilitating IDEs to VS 2005 as if they were all one. The JSF enabled IDEs can’t be used as if they were one, so asking the question of "Can it do it or not" is again not very practical.
Over all, the article seems to ask the question "Do JSF IDEs measure up to VS 2005" and seems to answer with "Yes, again to varying degrees." Even if you were able to mash all the JSF IDEs together into a best of breed hybrid of all these features, it still seems that VS 2005 would come out on top in quality. This is mainly due to the fact that the Java community seems to be many years late to the game of visual development and due to a lack of cohesiveness in the community.
Ultimately I hope to see the Java community catch up to Microsoft’s Visual Studio, but it looks like it still might be awhile before a defacto standard arises that is competitive.
Re: Is JSF ready to take on ASP.NET?
I admit upfront I don't know a lot about Java but I think the .Net/JSF article here is wrong. As noted by others it's about IDE's and not JSF/.Net. As such I don't believe the competetion is a close as the article shows with VS2005 edging out JDev. How can JSF/JDEV have no security wizards and the VS2005 with one that is simple and powerful be considered a tie?JSF wins on data binding? NO way, the ability to bind to all sorts of databases, xml files etc is all over .Net and while it's true that MS makes things better if you use MSSQL, the same is true of JDEV with Oracle. You can debug PL/SQL in JDev but what about T-SQL in a MSSQL server???
Not only that but what about the Dataset object, there is nothing in JSF/JDev (or all of Java as far as I know) that compares to it. This is not a one table view of your data. It can hold multiple tables, you can create views off of these and set relationships between tables in the dataset. You can have a dataset with two tables one from Oracle and one from an XML file and set referential integrity between them! Do that in JDev. You can set command objects to automatically handle your updates,deletes and inserts and is designed to work in a disconnected environment. Simply put, it rocks.
Java IDE's continue to get better and I hope they continue to do so, but even with JDev being free, I'll stay with VS2xxx
Re: Is JSF ready to take on ASP.NET?
Al,Yes the article is mostly about IDEs and not focusing so much on the components.. There's plenty to talk about in future articles though.
First off, this article was not just a comparison of JDeveloper to Visual Studio. It was comparing a collection of JSF enabled IDEs to VS .Net and mainly comparing and contrasting the web development features. In general I found that the JSF IDEs are catching up.
Now on the specifics of rating the two technologies. This is totally subjective.. and mainly just for fun. So no worries if you disagree with my quick assessments.
I can however describe more of the reasoning behind them.
Regarding Security. Again, I wasn't just comparing JDeveloper to VS, but instead was comparing several Java/JSF tools to VS. Also to correct you, JDeveloper (and other IDEs) actually do offer security configuration wizards for J2EE (web.xml) security but I didn't really get into that so much because to really do security right, you have more to consider such as whether it's application based security or container based security - or how to handle the transport mechanism etc..
It's true that VS offers some nice Web app developer security features such as the Login controls and such, but I still think that to do security right you'll need to invest more time than what you get in a 2 second wizard.
Regarding databinding.
Again, I wasn't just comparing JDeveloper to VS, although JDeveloper does have some very powerful databinding capabilities which allow you to visually generate Faces or Struts based forms, input fields, buttons from middle-tier data from EJBs, Toplink and POJOs with it's ADF framework. IBM also offers powerful Faces databinding for SDO (Service data Objects). Sun Creator Studio also offers very cool databinding to JDBC RowSets. So all in all I'd say JSF IDE are catching up to the visual experience of VS databinding, but because they tend to offer a very wide variety of databinding possibilities I think they compete pretty decently. If it makes you feel better, I can rate them a tie.. But again I'm not really keeping score. My main point was that we are now seeing comparable databinding features in JSF enabled IDEs.
And finally regarding your comment about Java/JSF and Microsoft "Dataset" technology, there actually is a ton of Java technology which compares to this. If we are talking container managed persistence or in general mid-tier Java technologies which allow caching and data operations on disconnected datasources, then you just have to look at EJBs, Toplink and BC4J, Spring, SDO etc..
-Chris
Re: Is JSF ready to take on ASP.NET?
I think you have missed the intention of Microsoft when you stated: “It's true that VS offers some nice Web app developer security features such as the Login controls and such, but I still think that to do security right you'll need to invest more time than what you get in a 2 second wizard.” One of the big ploys of VS.NET 2005 was to reduce the amount of code need to do common task, such as creating logins for a website and securing it. Microsoft was able to reduce 70% of the code to do these common operations with wizards, new controls, and various other features, while setting a secure standard for everyone to follow without having to be an expert in security. I have been on many projects where some type of page login was needed to secure the pages, and I’ve seen developers go at it in many different ways. Many times when tackling this problem, I’ve seen developers with no clear since of security, I’ve seen those who think they know but don’t, and those who know what they are doing and have a clear since of security. In the end what you get is a whole lot of time being spent doing the same thing many different ways, with some models being less or more secure than others. So to deem the 2 second wizard that standardizes a correct and secure way to handle security, by people whom know security a lot better then a great deal of us, as not the right way to do security is a bit flawed.Father more the article clear went of speculation in several areas. Example your comments on Mobile Development, where you state that you haven’t seen anything as of yet but you go on to say how cool it will be when it comes out. I do not see how you can rank to things as being tied when you have not personally got to take a look at these features offered. As for your part about Data-binding, you have clearly spent very little time working with ADO.NET and very little research to make up for the lack of using the ADO.NET. ADO.NET allows for you to connect to an Oracle Database as easy as you can connect to a SQL 2000/2005 database and perform any query operations. Of course syntax and the connection strings differ between the two other than that using ADO.NET is quite similar and no harder or easier than the other.
Re: Is JSF ready to take on ASP.NET?
hi,we are a company that has is own erp developed using forms and reports. At this moment we are with a decision in our hands, change the development tools.
The 2 players we are considering now is java plataform or the .net .
i personally think that .net is a better development tool at this moment but our human resources are forms people and i think that oracle is concerned with this people and is trying to get the solutions for smother steps between forms and jdeveloper.
Can anyone point us some pros and cons to help us in out decision? remember that we are talking about rich ui application.
thx
Re: Is JSF ready to take on ASP.NET?
Java Pros:-There are a lot of help on various topics, so finding help or getting something explained is very easy.
-Many different choices in IDE
-Multi platform
Java Cons:
-Despite many Java fanatics saying it has the best IDE, I think Java has long way to go with this. Designing forms in Java, I found to be a bit of unnecessary head-ace, it takes a lot longer to design a form. IDE’s I’ve used (IntelliJIDEA and Eclipse both of which came highly recommended).
-Functionality for a standard windows application has to be programmed in. Java applications just don’t have the same feel and ability of a regular windows application without programming it in.
.NET 2.0 Pros
- ASP.NET makes it easy to create rich UI web/desktop
- Many of redundant task are generated for you, to cut down on time. This is a big PRO because it takes far less time to design in .NET
- ADO.NET makes it very easy to interface with a database (SQL, ORACLE are the only ones I’ve worked with but there are support for others.) Data driven forms can be created really quick with new the new controls, that save you time coding.
- Your choice of language C#, VB.NET, J# Iron Python- I also think the Namespace layout is cleaner.
- Biggest thing is saves time.
- The SDKs that help interface into already existing MS products such as office.
- Windows Vista (WinFX, new MS Compiler code name Phoenix, this give .NET more functionality and better performance )
.NET 2.0 Cons
- Has a few bugs here and there, re-factoring engine isn’t that great even though drastically improved over .NET 1.1. Java IDE’s are better at this but you can buy a good re-factoring tool from www.devexpress.com which is the best I’ve seen for a re-factoring engine.
- MSDN for help can be cryptic but after a few weeks you get it and it’s not so bad
Despite the few bugs in the VS.NET 2005 IDE overall .net will save you in time and money. It also gives you access to libraries and control over windows that you just cannot get from Java without tons code if at all. .NET also gives you the flexibility to use the best languages to get the job done. Despite what Java users may thing there is no perfect language. If you need to program on other platforms besides windows then Java might be a good alterative for you. However ASP.NET/ADO.NET web applications present a very good argument because if someone has a browser they can uses your web application.
Re: Is JSF ready to take on ASP.NET?
Hi miguel,I'm saad from morocco. and actually we have the same issue here, we have our owne ERP developed with forms and reports (designer) and we seriously plan to migrate it to a java environement (java/tomcat), espacially because of the expansive OAS licences to our customers.
Our main issue is productivity. could we develop with Jdeveloper as fast as with forms and reports?
It would be interesting if we could keep contact !
thank you
Re: Is JSF ready to take on ASP.NET?
> The article acknowledges the fact that Java> technology products are trailing Microsoft’s Visual
> Studio in the market of IDE’s.
I would say that this isn't true (that Java IDEs are trailing). In some instances it is better. Others it definitely is not. It mostly depends on how you develop and what you develop. Many things that VS.Net makes easier are things I would never do (i.e. binding to db objects).
I pretty much use both VS.Net and Eclipse on a daily basis building both "Desktop" and "Browser-based" applications.
Some of the issues I have with both are not just IDE related.