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AJAX vs. Java (word processing smack down)
At 6:55 AM on Mar 12, 2006, Roger Voss wrote:
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To try out Writely's interactive word processing features you'll need to go sign up for a free account.
Now, however, contrast Writely against the ThinkFree.com Java-implemented office suite. ThinkFree has an applet version of each of their office applications that can be viewed in a web page . To peek at their word processor, just click on the "Open Up Write" button and then click the "CLICK HERE TO START THINKFREE WRITE" button. The applet word processor will appear with a sample document already loaded.
I use Microsoft Office 2000 on my personal Windows computer, while the version I have on my personal Mac is Office 2004. This ThinkFree word processor more closely resembles the UI of Word from Office 2000.
If you've gone and evaluated Writely you'll see that the ThinkFree Java-implemented word processor is clearly better. Instead of using a JavaScript/DHTML-based interaction that feels a bit woozy and sluggish at times (such as slooow drop down menus), the Java-based ThinkFree stuff responds crisply. If I had to spend much time using one of these to compose documents, hands down it would be the ThinkFree implementation.
You get access to Writely rather quickly because it's JavaScript. Everywhere you travel and can get to a browser you'll be able to quickly pull up your document in Writely.
Yet while the first time loading a ThinkFree applet takes about 30 seconds, its editing options are much more full featured, and most importantly it has a good crisp, responsive feel instead of that cheap, cheesy feel that is characteristic of AJAX application UI.
I know the web is supposed to be continually advancing us into a brave new world where everything is cool - but why is it that AJAX applications keep giving me this uneasy feeling that computer user interface technology is rapidly going backwards? The software I used eight years ago is still many measures better than the best AJAX can muster up.
Now Java on the other hand? It is clear that Java these days is capable enough for producing an office suite that can go toe to toe with any that has ever been built.
Oh, and did I mention? Writely won't work on Macintosh OS X Safari. ThinkFree, on the other hand works great on Windows and Macintosh - plus it themes itself to your current desktop appearance. Pretty cool stuff.
40 replies so far (
Post your own)
Re: AJAX vs. Java (word processing smack down)
I just looked at ThinkFree and I must say I am impressed.I could never understand all the noise about AJAX when Java has allowed the creation of rich distributed applications for years. All the noise about AJAX is good in one respect though. AJAX is a good way to market the whole concept of distributed applications which ultimately might lead to the holy grail of network centric computing, the Network Work Computer (NC). I can only imagine a world where I don't have to maintain 3 duplicate desktops and engage in the daily file shuffle between them. Oh what a wonderful world that will be!
Re: AJAX vs. Java (word processing smack down)
AJAX is currently the flavour of the month. As such, people are simply testing it's robustness (including Google)I agree that some of the AJAX appliations are... um... extreme. Including Writely. Who knows though, it might just take off?!
But! if people weren't testing the scope of AJAX, we'd never know just how capable it actually is.
Yes there are many 'thick' client applications that do better but it's innovation time - embrace it
Re: AJAX vs. Java (word processing smack down)
Well, it's not that cross-platform:(Trying it with Firefox 1.5 on Windows 2000).
Java Plug-in 1.5.0_02
Using JRE version 1.5.0_02 Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM
java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError
at com.tf.applet.loader.LoaderApplet.init(LoaderApplet.java:56)
at sun.applet.AppletPanel.run(Unknown Source)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
Caused by: java.lang.NullPointerException
at com.tf.applet.loader.i.c(i.java:206)
at com.tf.applet.loader.i. (i.java:59)
... 3 more
java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError
at com.tf.applet.loader.LoaderApplet.init(LoaderApplet.java:56)
at sun.applet.AppletPanel.run(Unknown Source)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError
at com.tf.applet.loader.LoaderApplet.init(LoaderApplet.java:56)
at sun.applet.AppletPanel.run(Unknown Source)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError
at com.tf.applet.loader.LoaderApplet.init(LoaderApplet.java:56)
at sun.applet.AppletPanel.run(Unknown Source)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
Re: AJAX vs. Java (word processing smack down)
> but why is it that AJAX applications keep> giving me this uneasy feeling that computer user
> interface technology is rapidly going backwards? The
> software I used eight years ago is still many
> measures better than the best AJAX can muster up.
You're comparing AJAX apps to desktop C/C++/Java apps, and you're disappointed in the places where it falls short. The AJAX fans compare it to HTML, DHTML, and Javascript, and they're happy that it has more capabilities than those.
The root problem is that web browsers haven't advanced much in the last 5-7 years. If web browser vendors had done a good job with supporting applets, we'd all be using our desktop apps through our browsers today.
Re: AJAX vs. Java (word processing smack down)
AJAX will not replace your desktop applications. I know, some people think that they can but they are wrong.Re: AJAX vs. Java (word processing smack down)
> The root problem is that web browsers haven't> advanced much in the last 5-7 years. If web browser
> vendors had done a good job with supporting applets,
> we'd all be using our desktop apps through our
> browsers today.
Exactly. AJAX wouldn't have got a toenail in today if applets had become the primary interaction environment. Just take a look at ThinkFree - it absolutely rocks and one feels a lot of pain just envisioning the possibilities *if* applets had the mainstream medium.
However, the applet battle was lost before it was fought thanks to the diminishing market share of Netscape, the Sun-MS breakup that lead to an antiquated and buggy JRE offered by IE and the humongous and monolithic nature of the JRE itself.
Competitors like AJAX, Flash and now Flex have gone ahead and done what applets could have done.
Re: AJAX vs. Java (word processing smack down)
Exactly what were the browsers supposed to do to support java? There is already support for applets in all browsers.You are blaming the wrong people here. The blame belongs squarely on the shoulders of Sun. Sun was not able cut a deal with Dell to include a JVM by default. Sun was not able to deliver a JRE that could update itself. Sun was not able to cut a deal with MS (ok so maybe that's not so much their fault). Sun was not able to make java web start not suck so much or so ugly. Sun was not able to deliver a JVM that could share applications. Sun was not able to deliver a non sucky performance GUI till 1.5.
Sure we all waited around patiently for Sun to deliver on the promise of java but everybody else with a dollop of common sense has left. All that's left in the building of Java GUI apps and applets are the true believers. The rest of world has moved on. Right now they are all going on the AJAX train because although it doesn't promise much it actually delivers on it's promises.
So lets all blame the right party here. Sun is as fault, nobody else.
Re: AJAX vs. Java (word processing smack down)
> You are blaming the wrong people here. The blame> belongs squarely on the shoulders of Sun. Sun was not
> able cut a deal with Dell to include a JVM by
> default.
> So lets all blame the right party here. Sun is as
> fault, nobody else.
Hey, dont get so angry. I agree with you.
Re: AJAX vs. Java (word processing smack down)
I don't agree with you about browsers.Maybe the did not grow in funcionality, because the underlying html standards were not evolving, and were not designed for the new web requirements.
But if you work a little with DOM,AJAX and CSS you can see the evolution.
Every time I work with DOM and CSS, some neurons in my mind ask for the same question: how could they build such a complex application? Supporting all this DOM scripting and CSS standards?...
I think this is marvellous.
And it's there on almost any modern browser.
Re: AJAX vs. Java (word processing smack down)
> AJAX will not replace your desktop applications. I> know, some people think that they can but they are
> wrong.
AJAX is already replacing our desktop applications. Just look at GMail. Now think about how heavyweight an applet would be for the same task.
The problem is that these inferior technologies have a growing market share simply because the universal availability of the applications. To have a similar Java application deployed as an applet or a JWS application involves way too much effort from the end user's point of view.
So unless the JRE gets much more lightweight and modular and its deployment becomes much easier we will see AJAX or similar technologies flourish. And Sun is not planning such a move in the near future. So that's another lost battle for Java on the desktop. People bashing third party JRE development (and the Classpath.org project with open-source JVMs like Kaffe in particular) should probably rethink their position.
Re: AJAX vs. Java (word processing smack down)
ThinkFree is great and has been for some time, but if you don't understand why a large portion of the industry is moving towards browser based applications faster than they are heavier desktop and Java applications, you need to get waist deep in a corporate rollout or a budget meeting for new systems.While its almost unfair to say that one can roll out a 'from scratch' AJAX application faster than a 'from scratch' Java application, there is mounting evidence to suggest this to be the case. If you are curious about ThinkFree's lack of adoption, maybe you should ask sun why instead of acquiring ThinkFree, then invested heavily in OpenOffice - a product that wasn't even Java based.
Re: AJAX vs. Java (word processing smack down)
> Exactly what were the browsers supposed to do to> support java? There is already support for applets in
> all browsers.
If you don't know what the problem is with applet support in browsers today, there's no helping you.
>
>
> You are blaming the wrong people here. The blame
> belongs squarely on the shoulders of Sun. Sun was not
> able cut a deal with Dell to include a JVM by
> default.
They wouldn't need to deal with Dell or any other OEM if we had a JVM within IE.
> Sun was not able to deliver a JRE that could
> update itself.
That was never a cause of applets not succeeding, IMO. Flash, Javascript, etc. don't automatically update themselves either.
> Sun was not able to cut a deal with MS
> (ok so maybe that's not so much their fault).
They did cut a deal with MS. And of course it's not so much their fault.
> Sun was
> not able to make java web start not suck so much or
> so ugly.
Webstart came much later. That has nothing to do with applets not succeeding. There would be no need for webstart if applets succeeded.
> Sun was not able to deliver a JVM that could
> share applications.
Again, nothing to do with applets.
> Sun was not able to deliver a non
> sucky performance GUI till 1.5.
True, but not related to applets. It was up to the browser vendors to do that. And the performance for applets by Netscape, MS, and Apple was all good enough. No one disliked applets because they were too slow.
>
> Sure we all waited around patiently for Sun to
> deliver on the promise of java
> with a dollop of common sense has left. All that's
> left in the building of Java GUI apps and applets are
> the true believers.
Java GUI apps are doing just fine.
> The rest of world has moved on.
No, not really. As far as apps go, those who haven't switched to Java yet are still stuck on some older technology that's not as good. They haven't "moved on" even to C#. As for applets, I wouldn't call flash, AJAX, and Javascript "moving on" so much as being stuck with what works.
> Right now they are all going on the AJAX train
> because although it doesn't promise much it actually
> delivers on it's promises.
>
> So lets all blame the right party here. Sun is as
> fault, nobody else.
Today, applets aren't big because of the problems with running them in IE. What those problems are, every Java developer knows (including you, I believe). You can blame that on MS or Sun, and the only real way to figure out who's to blame is to research the Sun/MS lawsuit.
Re: AJAX vs. Java (word processing smack down)
> > AJAX will not replace your desktop applications. I> > know, some people think that they can but they are
> > wrong.
>
> AJAX is already replacing our desktop applications.
> Just look at GMail.
OK, let's look. How many people are using gmail (and all other web-based email readers) vs. how many are using Outlook (and all other desktop apps)? The desktop apps still dominate, even for something as simple as reading and composing email.
> Now think about how heavyweight
> an applet would be for the same task.
Right, but that's not his point...he's not saying applets rule, he's saying desktop apps rule.
>
> The problem is that these inferior technologies have
> a growing market share simply because the universal
> availability of the applications. To have a similar
> Java application deployed as an applet or a JWS
> application involves way too much effort from the
> end user's point of view.
Agreed. But compared to desktop apps - Java or otherwise - these "web apps" are still too limited.
>
> So unless the JRE gets much more lightweight and
> modular and its deployment becomes much easier we
> will see AJAX or similar technologies flourish. And
> Sun is not planning such a move in the near future.
> So that's another lost battle for Java on the
> desktop.
It's actually the same "applet" desktop battle...the battle was lost long ago. What you're describing is applets.
> People bashing third party JRE development
> (and the Classpath.org project with open-source JVMs
> like Kaffe in particular) should probably rethink
> their position.
I have no idea how that relates.
Re: AJAX vs. Java (word processing smack down)
> > > AJAX will not replace your desktop applications.> I
> > > know, some people think that they can but they
> are
> > > wrong.
> >
> > AJAX is already replacing our desktop
> applications.
> > Just look at GMail.
>
> OK, let's look. How many people are using gmail (and
> all other web-based email readers) vs. how many are
> using Outlook (and all other desktop apps)? The
> desktop apps still dominate, even for something as
> simple as reading and composing email.
I don't know exact figures, but GMail is increasing in popularity. And because everyone knows about Google, we can expect their tool to achieve a considerable market share. Agreed, the 2GB+ available storage is also very tempting. On the other hand I think that many people find GMail's interface pretty much usable (more usable than other WebMail interfaces). An interesting statistic would be the percent of GMail users that choose POP3 access to read their emails.
>
> > Now think about how heavyweight
> > an applet would be for the same task.
>
> Right, but that's not his point...he's not saying
> applets rule, he's saying desktop apps rule.
You are right, but an applet is supposed to feel more lightweight than a desktop application.
> >
> > The problem is that these inferior technologies
> have
> > a growing market share simply because the
> universal
> > availability of the applications. To have a
> similar
> > Java application deployed as an applet or a JWS
> > application involves way too much effort from the
> > end user's point of view.
>
> Agreed. But compared to desktop apps - Java or
> otherwise - these "web apps" are still too limited.
HTML+JavaScript based Web apps will always be more limited than desktop applications. But my feeling is that, for certain types of applications, if one manages to provide a reasonably ergonomic AJAX based interface which is available almost instantly from any Web browser, it would outdo any competing desktop application.
> >
> > So unless the JRE gets much more lightweight and
> > modular and its deployment becomes much easier we
> > will see AJAX or similar technologies flourish.
> And
> > Sun is not planning such a move in the near
> future.
> > So that's another lost battle for Java on the
> > desktop.
>
> It's actually the same "applet" desktop battle...the
> battle was lost long ago. What you're describing is
> applets.
While that battle was lost long ago, the continuous increase in processing power makes users want better usability and ergonomics. The amount of processing done by an AJAX application can be considerable and performance-wise a Java based applet or desktop application can perform considerably better while also providing an improved user experience. This leads to a new desktop-Web confrontation.
> > People bashing third party JRE development
> > (and the Classpath.org project with open-source
> JVMs
> > like Kaffe in particular) should probably rethink
> > their position.
>
> I have no idea how that relates.
True, it does not related directly. The JRE is even more heavyweight than it used to be while applets and JavaWebStart have their own issues. This will most probably lead to a new loss for the Java desktop in the confrontation with Web apps. And this makes it clear (at least for me) that if Java is ever to succeed on the desktop, it will be achieved with a third party JRE specifically designed for desktop applications.