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Sun Bundles Java DB with Mustang b88
URL: Francois Orsini's Blog
At 7:17 AM on Jun 16, 2006, Michael Urban wrote:
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"It is a very exciting event indeed to have an Open Source Java Database System bundled into Sun's *latest* 1.6 JDK (Mustang build 88 to be more precise), and at no cost.", said Francois Orsini in a recent blog entry.
Is it? I'm not sure I agree with that.
Bundling a database with the JDK just doesn't seem like such a good idea to me. For one, not many people are likely to use it, with the vast majority of workhorse database work continuing to be done in MySQL, PostgreSQL, and the various commercial databases.
Second, even if people do use it, the version of Derby bundled with the JRE will almost certainly lag behind the official one from Apache as time passes, thus causing people to want to download the official one anyway.
What's your opinion? Is bundling a database with the JDK a nice feature? Or is it just bloat that most people will not use?
The original article is here
131 replies so far (
Post your own)
Re: Sun Bundles Java DB with Mustang b88
I'll leave it up to others to comment on if it's a good idea in general to bundle a database with the JDK.However, I will say that Apache Derby was a good choice.
CodeFutures decided last year to do the same thing - bundle Derby with its product. The response from end users was very positive.
Re: Sun Bundles Java DB with Mustang b88
Disclaimer: I'm not for/against open-sourcing Java, I just want compatibility and reliabilty.Having said that, one of the reasons Sun has hesitated so much about open-sourcing Java is fear of forking the code base.
With bundled Rhino/Javascript, they've done that themselves (they removed integrated XML with E4X, which would have been a far better option to retain than proposing XML integration into Java 7... yet E4X was a compelling reason to use JavaScript). And it looks like Java DB/Derby/Cloudscape is going to be forked too (as if it wasn't already).
- Chris
I totally disagree with this inclusion
I agree with you Michael.It is a dangerous precedent, leave this as an option not an inclusion.
It could alienate other database projects and even resellers.
This much like M$ including it's browser, and soon word.
This is a bad decision.
Re: I totally disagree with this inclusion
I completly agree. The JDK should simply include libraries that enable easy development not end user applications and a Java DB is a enduser application.This will also create the usual problem when including derby into your projects. Similar to the xerces libraries.
Now where do I have to put this library so that it gets picked up before the jdk stuff is picked up?
The JDK is bloated enough and it's time to reduce the size not increase it.
Re: Sun Bundles Java DB with Mustang b88
I don't think it is a very good idea to bundle a database in the jdk.Re: I totally disagree with this inclusion
i disagree, people who wants to start developing in Java may have a quick start and benefit from this. JDK is not really bloated IMHO, as you know the size really does not matter on a developer product (compare .Net for a change..)Re: Sun Bundles Java DB with Mustang b88
I think it should be outside of the JDK, but available as an easy-to-download pack (e.g. Java DB Development Pack, or something like that).Could "javax" packages be used more effectively?
I can't help wondering whether there's a way that standardized, modular extension to the core Java could be supported? QuickTime makes it drop-dead easy to add additional stuff to their core distribution if you want it, but you don't have to have it when you start.Expanding the core JDK seems less desirable than an option to grab modular extensions if you want/need them.
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Re: Sun Bundles Java DB with Mustang b88
I really don't like it.Next step is to bundle Netbeans and Sun's Application server.
So it should left out the JDK. If included in the JRE it is even worse. Focus should be:
- developer productivity
- stability / resolving bugs
- performance
Ronald
Re: Sun Bundles Java DB with Mustang b88 - it's good
I do not see anything wrong with this decision. Do not forget, that this is not just a typical database. It's a small footprint (2MB) downloadable DB that will allow users to work in a disconnected mode. I blogged on the subj over hereBeing a part of the language will imporove usability/adoption of Java in general.
Re: Sun Bundles Java DB with Mustang b88
Does this mean it is also bundled with the JRE?Then it is a definite nono
Re: I totally disagree with this inclusion
I contradict this but to most western broadband users this is no issue.But why not make this db available as a separate easy to download distribution? Why bundle it in the core?
If I don't want to program DB I still have to download 2MB. And hey it isn't really hard to download the stuff directly from apache especially for a developer and at least you get the latest version. Not to mention that you will have to grab the stuff anyway when it is time to deploy the application you just developed.
And as a side note: This gives a headstart to derby over other embedded databases.
Re: Sun Bundles Java DB with Mustang b88
I disagree with the consensus. I see many purposes where this will be helpful. Database dependent applications can now be distributed in working condition. If you wanted to use another database you can do the usual configuration. But if you want to do a quick test of software, you can.For instance, testing the various Java portal software to figure out which is the best for your needs can take days, due mainly to app-server configuration and database configuration. It would be nice if you could get them all running in a few minutes.
Also, I see benefit to the possibility that the J2SE libraries themselves can use the embedded database to persist certain data, knowing that it will work on all Java 1.6 systems.
What was the JCP process?
It's funny. On the one hand, we all hear "The JCP is in charge of Java, not Sun, blah, blah, blah". Where all those "blahs" indicate that it really is a community making decisions about thing like what things get put into Java, not Sun.And yet on the other hand, we have this "Sun decided to do XYZ".
So let's take a quick drive down the surely dead-end road of trying to figure out what's really going on...
OK, let's start at jcp.org. Click on the list of all JSRs, quickly find that JSR170 (http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=270) is group that decides what goes into Mustang. Download (Accept license without reading - license-anal-retentives stop here) and take a look at the latest document there. Hmmm. No mention of "Java DB" or "Derby" at all, and yes, it does seem to be a complete list of Mustang features.
So after that dead, end, let's try a different road: where's the JSR270 mailing list? Hmmm. Just can't find it on jcp.org...I guess you have to be a member of the expert group to get to some special area (http://jcp.org/en/eg/my) to see mailing list archives.
Let's do a quick google on "JSR 270 mailing list" to make sure we're not missing anything....nope.
Let's check the Mustang project at java.net (https://mustang.dev.java.net/). Nope, nothing there that I can see relating to this, other than a pointer to the JSR270 spec lead Mark Reinhold's blog (http://weblogs.java.net/blog/mreinhold/archive/2005/12/mustang_release.html) summarizing what's in the latest JSR270 doc (no, no mention of Java DB there).
OK, well, we're stuck. After 15 minutes, we've found no info whatsoever on how a major addition to Java got in there. Good thing the major addition wasn't "goto". Do we have another half an hour to make a lame attempt to actually joing JSR 270? They say any individual can join for free! Sure, what the heck, we're going to join JSR270 just to find out how Java DB got in there.
Back at jcp.org, click Membership. Gack! what an awful page...can't find my way around...keep going...ok, I'm going to have to fax a couple forms back...make it 45 minutes to an hour...filled out the forms (legal anal-retentives stop here) and faxed them back.
Now what? I have no idea. All I see here after fax instructions (http://www.jcp.org/en/participation/membership#fax) is this:
> When Sun executes the agreement, a copy will be faxed back to you.
OK, well, I suppose it's time to get back to real work anyway...