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Echo2 or Wicket?
At 12:59 PM on Jul 21, 2006, James Chua wrote:
Fresh Jobs for Developers Post a job opportunity
Thanks
james
[Edited by: rick on Jul 26, 2006 7:59 AM]
18 replies so far (
Post your own)
Re: Echo2 or Wicket?
Hi,For what you say you wish to do, I don't really see a way to recommend either framework over the other.
In my opinion, the real difference between Echo2 and Wicket (both great, almost revolutionary, frameworks) is that:
Echo2 is more for making "desktop-like" applications on the Web, whereas Wicket is more for traditional Web applications.
This is not to say that Wicket can't do AJAX and all that, just that the frameworks come at it from a different angle.
Echo2 is built around AJAX whereas AJAX an extra (or more correctly extra components) for Wicket.
I hope neither group of framework developers will be offended by that, I'm just trying to explain how I see they differ.
As for your requirements, "easy CRUD" I would probably recommend another framework like "Ruby on Rails."
Hope that helps.
Cheers,
Ashley.
--
Ashley Aitken
Perth, Western Australia.
Yet another wanna be frame coder
James,Learn the basics first. Start with Servlets and JSP. Do not worry about frameworks just yet. Java has 50 Web application framework that do the same thing as Struts. This is insane.
Read the following disussion: http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t76397.html
Re: Echo2 or Wicket?
PS With either framework though, you're going to have to really get into Java. Both are strongly Java focussed (which is a good thing).Re: Yet another wanna be frame coder
That is a very bad advice if you ask me..Starting with servlets and jsp means that you really are starting to learn java the bad way. It is not OO at all. What java should be about.
Re: Yet another wanna be frame[work] coder
If you're going back to "basics," why stop at the year 2000? You could implement your own protocol stack in C. Right after you write your own compiler. That would be insane.Both frameworks bring traditional GUI programming the Web. Like A.A. said above, Wicket is geared more towards building normal looking (but highly interactive) Web sites while Echo apps look and work more like desktop applications. So you pick the one that aligns with your own priorities for your app.
I happen to have a few example CRUD applications in Wicket. They start with CR, then skip to the D, and finally add in the U. I hope you find them helpful.
Re: Echo2 or Wicket?
If I had to pick one it would be Echo2 just because the programming model will be very familiar to a Delphi programmer. But you should be prepared for outdated documentation and confusion and you MUST make use of at least one of the extension libraries such as EchoPointNG or another such library otherwise you just won't get many of the widgets you need.I personally have been experimenting with GWT recently and I'm very happy with it. I'm writing an extensive set of blog posts about it: http://jroller.com/page/vprise where I cover the task of writing a management software for my girl friends Yoga studio using EJB3 and GWT (I also include the decision process where at first I didn't want to pick GWT but eventually gave it a second try).
Re: Echo2 or Wicket?
Although the learning curve might be a bit steep, you should definitely check out Tapestry.http://tapestry.apache.org/
Re: Echo2 or Wicket?
I come from a background of C++ builder, which is similar to delphi (the component model is exactly the same).My first web adventure was with struts, and cocoon... both weren't very pleasing experiences, as I didn't *get* it. This was around 2002 or so. When I switched employers, I was thrown into a web project that was built on top of Maverick (don't use it), and velocity as a template engine for the web pages. This was highly confusing, because you have to do everything yourself and you had to configure your ass off.
Then my coworkers discovered Wicket (while still in its infancy), and I haven't looked back at the model2 frameworks ever since. I fully enjoy working with Wicket as my primary web framework, and I now can build applications in the way I was used to when working with the Delphi components.
I must commend you on your first two choices, both are excellent frameworks given your background. I should suggest that you also try Sun Java Studio Creator and or JDeveloper (oracle). That will give you an experience similar to Visual Studio and delphi for building web applications: drag'n drop. The underlying framework is JSF/JSP based, which several people shy away from for various reasons. If you want to get to the metal using JDeveloper or Creator, you'll have a lot of complex stuff coming over you, as JSF is a pretty huge and complex technology to grasp.
If you prefer a more Java centric development model, then I would suggest your both choices. Wicket would be a pre when you are working with a designer that is good at building HTML and CSS based layouts, Echo2 would be a good choice if you are into Layout Managers, if I am not mistaken.
You can read on Ensode.net a review of Echo2 and an introduction to Wicket . Both could be out of date, I know that the Wicket article is 1.1 based, which is almost a year old and we have had a lot of progression since.
Re: Yet another wanna be frame coder
I'm probably stirring the pot, but I'll share an anecdote.Back In The Day, we were doing some Delphi development, and we had a junior developer doing the work. 6 mos into the project, even though we delivered large chunks of working, tested code, the programmer made an off remark to the extent of "Yea, this Delphi is pretty good, but I still don't understand the difference between memory and disk."
The point being here was someone productive in creating computer applications, the customer was happy, the code worked, but yet the programmer didn't understand some of the most fundamental aspects of computer system organization and operation.
On the one hand I'm was agape at this revelation, but on the other, it's a testament to the tools we have today. It's a testament to the fact that he was able to do remarkable things on the computer with essentially no knowledge of how it worked. He, if pressed, really didn't know what he was doing "in the large", but was capable of successfully plugging Delphi components together on a screen and writng the glue to make it work.
Odds are that the poster will be more comfortable, and successful, with a component framework and layering his Delphi knowledge on top of Java than he would be starting with HTTP and servlets. If the frameworks hide the HTTP part well, then he need focus solely on components and interactions.
Just like you don't really need to understand TCP/IP or Virtual Memory to create network applications today, our tools are doing a better job of shrouding the very low level details of the protocols upon which we build.
In the large, he SHOULD understand HTTP, and servlets, but that doesn't mean he needs to understand them today. When he does need to, he'll be in for a potentially rude shock. But if he can learn the 20% of the tool suite he needs in order to be productive, then more power to him.
Re: Echo2 or Wicket?
I'm in a similar situation, but I already have a couple of years experience with developing Java desktop applications and basic experience with Servlets and JSP.Currently we have our website running with JSP and a lot of scriptlets performing the more "advanced" stuff like generating links for the page navigation. This is very cumbersome, because you need to run the application to see/verify the HTML output.
We don't want to write a classic web-application (e.g. shop or forum), we just want to maintain our website (containing only a few pieces of advanced stuff) with as less as possible effort. This includes a clean way of creating page headers, navigation and footers, so the output which should be the same on all pages is only located at one location in the source code. Of course this means not showing links to the current page like primitiv web-application-frameworks seem to do.
Does somebody knows what web-application-framework might be a good starting point to take a look at? If the above information is not enough, don't hesitate to ask. Thanks in advance.
Mike
Re: Yet another wanna be frame coder
>In the large, he SHOULD understand HTTP, and servlets, but that doesn't mean he needs to understand them today. When he does need to, he'll be in for a potentially rude shock.He'll be in a rude shock when his job will go to India, and he'll visit dice.com trying to find a job that requires the knowledge of Wicket or Echo2 or whatever other little thingy is out there. I went to Dice.com and Wicket is mentioned in seven posting across the USA, and the other one did not produce any job postings. Out of these 7 posts, most likely 5 are fake. The word servlet has returned more than 2000 posts.
Re: Yet another wanna be frame coder
> He'll be in a rude shock when his job will go to> India, and he'll visit dice.com trying to find a job
> that requires the knowledge of Wicket or Echo2 or
> whatever other little thingy is out there. I went to
> Dice.com and Wicket is mentioned in seven posting
> across the USA, and the other one did not produce any
> job postings. Out of these 7 posts, most likely 5
> are fake. The word servlet has returned more than
> 2000 posts.
Of course, his job wouldn't go to India in the first place when his company would stop using servlets for their main web development.
Re: Yet another wanna be frame coder
Great argument dude. Maybe on next reply you'll say something about .NET. Or maybe mention that he would be better of selling dishwashers when off-shoring catches on.Re: Yet another wanna be frame coder
+1 on that. Besides argument of productivity for not using servlets/ JSP, there is also the issue that by using a proper OO framework, you'll be a better coder. It is sad to see how many awful practices are mainstream in JEE.> In the large, he SHOULD understand HTTP, and
> servlets, but that doesn't mean he needs to
> understand them today. When he does need to, he'll be
> in for a potentially rude shock. But if he can learn
> the 20% of the tool suite he needs in order to be
> productive, then more power to him.