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Is the Mac really a good dev platform?
URL: Java 6 on Mac OS X - When?
At 9:37 AM on May 31, 2007, Matthew Schmidt wrote:
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To me, there seems to be a few reasons why you'd not want to run the Mac for Java development. Let's look at things from the Java side. For one, the Java version for OSX is usually behind. Java 6 has been out in final release for quite some time now and yet we haven't seen even a new developer preview since Sept. Lately, we've been running our key servers on Java 6 and we can't even test during development on our Macs.
So, besides having a slick command line and nice interface, is the Mac really worth it for Java development? Your JVM version will always be behind, you're paying a premium for the Mac hardware and Apple has always treated Java like a bit of a second class citizen. So, why do you keep sticking with your Mac?
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Re: Is the Mac really a good dev platform?
> So, why do you keep sticking with> your Mac?
I bought my first mac May 2006, just before JavaOne. Besides freezing on stage this year during the Iris demo (gah!!), it has been a real pleasure to code with. I've been running the Java 6 preview build since it came out, and generally speaking haven't run into any major issues.
I love the OS in general. I love the applications, both the built in ones and the ones that are available. Parallels makes it easy to do windows-stuff if I need to (like work on the JDK).
One thing I like about the Mac is a great deal of attention-to-detail. You wouldn't believe how much they spend, or how much they work on some of the simpliest design features. Things so small you might not even notice them.
I also love the OS. It's a really great, really usable desktop built on a unix base. It's what desktop linux should have been.
That said, I hate having to go to /System/Library/Frameworks/JavaVM.framework/Versions/1.6.0/Home to get to my JDK (ya, I need to setup a symlink). I hate not having the sources for the JDK available. But overall, I really enjoy developing on my mac.
Richard
Re: Is the Mac really a good dev platform?
I've been thinking about getting one for my own development.I'm curious though: I've noticed that with Java I use my End and Home keys quite a lot. Since MacBooks don't have those keys, is the command key + Right/Left for jumping to the beginning and end of a line much of a nuisance? Any other thoughts on how the keyboards impact your work?
Re: Is the Mac really a good dev platform?
Macs are useless for any development not only for Java. Everything is behind Python, Ruby, C++ on the mac?, They dont have a good infrastructure for server development, their LAMP implementation sucks, The only thing I know is their Objective-C and the propetary Cocoa still on track. They are closed and propetary company but even they don't give a chance to develope for their platform with their closed and exclusive culture. Apple could give like a stack of Mac OS X for development and run in any x86 computer for developers that can't afford their hardware. They only care about their hardware and they are becoming appliance company not computing. Thats why apple Mac has always failed on the mass market becuase they feel exclusive. Also yes they are using some BSD stuff on their kernel but Microsoft at sometime also used BSD stuff on Windows Kernel. So I Don't see any cominment to opensource. They just get free beer and not contribute. Look at their IPhone closed as hell it does not allow 3rd partity applications on it. Plus really Steve Jobs is an arrogant, I prefer Bill Gates anytime. I'm glad Macs are on the bottom of the market share. I will stay with Linux or Windows anytime.Re: Is the Mac really a good dev platform?
For me it's really simple: I enjoy working on my computer much much more then when I was using Windows. I'm not spending hours every week to find out why Windows is freaking out on me, I'm not worried that installing something messes up my system, it's great to work on the command line, but also great to work on an interface that not only looks pretty but just makes sense and is consistent. Etc.Luckily, I haven't had too much trouble with Java on the Mac, though I hope one day someone at Apple wakes up and realizes that developers are currently pushing the Mac adoption quite a bit (about 40% of the people walking around on ApacheCon were holding Macs), and Java is a programming language used by *many* people.
Re: Is the Mac really a good dev platform?
> /System/Library/Frameworks/JavaVM.framework/Versions/1> .6.0/Home to get to my JDK (ya, I need to setup a
> symlink). I hate not having the sources for the JDK
> available. But overall, I really enjoy developing on
> my mac.
I just downloaded a Sun Java 6 package and used the sources from that. It's just source for the class library are pretty much the same anyway.
Re: Is the Mac really a good dev platform?
Regarding the keyboard Home and End keys, no it's not bad using CMD-arrow, but if you buy a USB keyboard (my Apple keyboard was about $35) the home and end keys are right back where you expect them. Daisy chaining a USB mouse (wireless?) to the keyboard means you just plug in one USB cable and your done. The keyboard also makes RemoteDesktoping to a Windows machine more natural.Also, it's a joy to plug in a vga flatpanel and instantly get an expanded desktop on the second screen with no configuration (unless you want to tweak the resolution).
Linux is Good Enough
> It's what desktop linux should have been.What's the matter with desktop Linux ?
I find it a lot more user friendly then Windows Vista.
My favorite window manager ... KDE is getting better and better, and there's tons of usability enhancements in the upcoming KDE 4.0
I wouldn't recommend Linux to beginners because it still has hardware-related problems, and newbies can't fix those easily, but guess what ... so does Windows Vista and Mac OS X (if you use anything else, other than the blessed Apple hardware).
Other than that, SUSE is very easy to configure (it has Yast, a fully featured Control Panel), and Kubuntu is also getting easier to configure with every release.
I don't like Macs simply because they are too expensive, and I'm sick of dealing with the Windows lock-in to jump in the bandwagon of an operating system that's only working with approved hardware.
And with Linux I have ... freedom to choose the hardware I want and freedom to modify the software.
YMMV, but from my point of view, a Linux box wins in quality, price, and long-term perspectives.
Re: Is the Mac really a good dev platform?
I work on a Mac Pro at home, and I use a MacBook with 2G RAM for remote work, although I use a PC at work.For what I do, the Mac is great. NetBeans works, Glassfish works, Tomcat works, I'm still running Java 5, Postgres works, pure Java JDBC drivers work for Oracle, etc.
The only thing that Windows has over the Mac is Tortoise SVN. That's a really nice SVN shell, but NetBeans has decent SVN integration, so it's hardly a show stopper.
But other than that, the machines are fast and I was instantly comfortable. When I switched to my Mac Pro, only powered up my home PC to mount it's drives and bring files over. I never had to talk to it again. I didn't miss anything on that machine.
And my Mac Pro was cheaper than what Dell was charging at the time for the same hardware
I have not tried to load up JDK 6 yet, and I do wish they would bring out a more current release, but Apple is neck deep in the iPhone and Leopard, so we get pushed to the back burner. And it seems that the JDK 6 they are running isn't a catastrophic mess.
I am not worried about Apple dumping or abandoning Java. They have deprecated their Java -> Cocoa interfaces, and Jobs poo poo'd Java on the iPhone. But, frankly, that's all meaningless to me as long as they keep up with the JVM. And it's in Apple's interest to keep up with the JVM if they ever want to sell Macs as servers to do anything beyond generic file and internet services (FTP, mail, etc) and 3D rendering, since Java is pretty much the only wide spread game in town for application servers.
So, we may be behind the curve on the JVM, we're not THAT far, and it's in Apple's interest to keep us up to date. They also have minor support for JBoss, and I think they may be bundling JBoss in Leopard.
But, in short, I'm totally satisfied using Java on my Mac. I think the MacBook is just a pleasure to use as a laptop.
The facts about OS X, Macs, iPhone and Jobs
Check your facts before posting unsubstantiated tripe.1) You can install whatever version of Python, Ruby, C++, or whatever by either using MacPorts or downloading and installing them yourself.
2) LAMP? What does the "L" stand for again? Jeez! You can upgrade the versions of Apache, MySQL and PHP/Perl. What exactly is the problem?
3) Apple is primarily focussed on upgrading their own tools. If users want to upgrade third party tools in a timely manner, that's their problem and initiative. Apple must maintain a stable OS, and that means not including all cutting-edge third-party technologies under the sun. Apple must guarantee security on their OS, since they're totally responsible for it. Individual users can do whatever they want.
4) Apple has closed source most (and I repeat most, not all) of their software because they differentiate themselves in the market (and are consistently profitable) because they include a unique hardware and software packages that's not easy to duplicate. Otherwise, they'd be another low-margin Dell or HP.
5) Apple would be insane to allow OS X to run on commodity hardware. A) They'd lose the hardware sales and their software sales would not compensate for the lost profits. B) Wintel would keep them off commodity PCs. C) They'd be held responsible for stability issues with third party hardware. D) Their developers working on cool Leopard features would be force to put off those features to work on QA and stability problems with third party hardware.
6) Apple's "appliances" are computers running OS X. Both the iPhone and AppleTV run OS X. Doubling the number of devices running OS X will help further enhance and stabilize that OS. Both products reinforce and add as an enabler for Mac sales.
7) Apple has failed in the "mass market" as much as Linux has. Apple wants to make a profit, not gain 100% market share.
8) Apple is just "including BSD stuff". Their kernel is a hybrid microkernel/BSD kernel. Their command-line shell is based on FreeBSD. OS X is based on Darwin, which is an open-source project. That source includes the kernel. There were delays in adding the Intel kernel to the sources, but the source is now there.
9) Apple contributes a great deal to open source:
http://www.macosforge.org/
10) Jobs has said he WILL open the iPhone to third party developers:
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/05/30/jobs_sheds_new_light_on_apple_iphone_at_d_conference.html
11) Sure Jobs is arrogant. He's also mostly right. Look at how far Apple has come since 1997. The difference between Jobs and Gates is that most of what he does is to make his customers' lives easier. Gates has consistently shown contempt for his customers. Vista's HD video DRM and Windows Genuine Advantage are the latest examples. Jobs doesn't screw his users.
When you draw conclusions without getting the facts first, you basically agree to lie to yourself. You should be more interested in the truth than allowing your prejudices overcome your judgement.
Macs are useless for any development not only for Java. Everything is behind Python, Ruby, C++ on the mac?, They dont have a good infrastructure for server development, their LAMP implementation sucks, The only thing I know is their Objective-C and the propetary Cocoa still on track. They are closed and propetary company but even they don't give a chance to develope for their platform with their closed and exclusive culture. Apple could give like a stack of Mac OS X for development and run in any x86 computer for developers that can't afford their hardware. They only care about their hardware and they are becoming appliance company not computing. Thats why apple Mac has always failed on the mass market becuase they feel exclusive. Also yes they are using some BSD stuff on their kernel but Microsoft at sometime also used BSD stuff on Windows Kernel. So I Don't see any cominment to opensource. They just get free beer and not contribute. Look at their IPhone closed as hell it does not allow 3rd partity applications on it. Plus really Steve Jobs is an arrogant, I prefer Bill Gates anytime. I'm glad Macs are on the bottom of the market share. I will stay with Linux or Windows anytime.
Re: Is the Mac really a good dev platform?
Really? I have the latest Python, Ruby, Perl and Tcl. What an inane post. Step away from the koolaid cooler my friend.Do I wish that Java was the "latest" sure. I think Sun should take the lead and create their own like they do for Linux and Windows. World isn't perfect though.
Re: Is the Mac really a good dev platform?
Apple mac fanboys really they suck. Mr.Luke have never reply on Javalobby so I guess he saw the article floating on the web to see what we talk about his wonderful religion "Apple". Watchout with apple fanboys, they even called me insane damn.I will still saying for the rest of my life Apple and Mac Sucks! Always did and Always will be.
Linux Rulz.
Re: Is the Mac really a good dev platform?
I assume this comment is either tong-in-cheek or made by an exuberant 15 year old convert to the competing Linux religion. Haha.Re: Is the Mac really a good dev platform?
Frankly speaking I'm really sick of reading childish posts about this kind of topics. I use computers for work, and I choose the best tools I can - I don't let myself conditioned by ideology. When I made the switch from Windows, about 1/2 years ago, Mac OS X was the most efficient platform around. A cut above Windows, much better than Linux. As others said, with Mac OS X I don't have to spend a lot of time in system administration, instead I can focus on my work. Sure Linux is getting better and better, but it's not yet as efficient (my computers are triple-boot, as sometimes I must run tests in Linux and Windows, and I can compare them).Sure, I'm getting frustrated about the lack of Java support and the arrogance of Apple in not disclosing its plans to users. Maybe from now to two years I'll make again a comparison and Linux could be better. Not now, yet.
PS I've run some tests recently where, playing with the same hardware, Linux seems to be much faster in compiling medium-sized applications. Probably a matter of filesystem. Nevertheless the upcoming Leopard with ZFS should fix this.
weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici, www.tidalwave.it/blog
Member of the NetBeans Dream Team.
Re: Is the Mac really a good dev platform?
Well, that's what Macs are all about: exclusiveness and style.Java 6 is great, but one can live also with Java 5. Currently, all clients of my employer run Java 5. They also don't run .NET 3, some of them even not .NET 2. I think most people in charge at client companies are rather conservative when it comes to switching to a new version of platform systems.