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IBM Unveils Rails-like Web Stack Built Using Java & Groovy - Project Zero
URL: Project Zero
At 3:03 PM on Jul 2, 2007, Gerald Bauer wrote:
Fresh Jobs for Developers Post a job opportunity
Evidently it's another attempt to learn from Rails and bring the productivity boost of convention over configuration, DRY, meta programming and more to the Java & Groovy world.
If anyone tries out Project Zero, let us know what you think. Find out more @ http://www.projectzero.org
Cheers,
Gerald
22 replies so far (
Post your own)
Re: IBM Unveils Rails-like Web Stack Built Using Java & Groovy - Project Ze
I would say that the license is quite restrictive and probably condemns this project to failure. IBM should know better.Re: IBM Unveils Rails-like Web Stack Built Using Java & Groovy - Project Ze
what is the license?Re: IBM Unveils Rails-like Web Stack Built Using Java & Groovy - Project Ze
I have to agree, with all the other excellent open source development platforms out there, releasing Zero under such a restrictive license seems silly.Zero would have to completely blow everything else out of the water, and it doesn't look like it does.
As per the license, this is from the FAQ:
Will Project Zero be open sourced?
There are currently no plans to release Project Zero under an open source license. While the community Driven Commercial Development process shares many of the benefits of open source projects, Project Zero is a Commercial endeavor and write access is restricted to IBM approved committers. See the Project Zero license for additional information.
How much does it cost?
Project Zero is licensed, not sold. The code available on projectzero.org is non-warranted and not supported. The license restricts use to 4 processor cores, does not allow commercial redistribution, and is provided for use on up to 4 instances per physical location. Please refer to the license agreement for further details. In the future IBM may choose to provide commercial offerings if there is demand for support or for use beyond the limits of the current license. If you would like to provide feedback on this topic, you may contact Joe Lea, IBM Project Zero Product Manager at jdlea at us dot ibm dot com or post to the forum on this site.
Here's the URL for the actual text
http://www.projectzero.org/wiki/bin/view/Main/LicenseAgreementForm
Re: IBM Unveils Rails-like Web Stack Built Using Java & Groovy - Project Ze
Closed. And there is commercial licensing for deployment:Project Zero is licensed, not sold. The code available on projectzero.org is non-warranted and not supported. The license restricts use to 4 processor cores, does not allow commercial redistribution, and is provided for use on up to 4 instances per physical location. Please refer to the license agreement for further details. In the future IBM may choose to provide commercial offerings if there is demand for support or for use beyond the limits of the current license.
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I love how they explain the licensing issues:
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Will Project Zero be open sourced?
There are currently no plans to release Project Zero under an open source license. While the community Driven Commercial Development process shares many of the benefits of open source projects, Project Zero is a Commercial endeavor and write access is restricted to IBM approved committers. See the Project Zero license for additional information.
followed by:
Does this mean IBM will not be pursuing new open source activities?
IBM remains committed to open source. Project Zero follows a commercial software development effort, in much the same way as other commercial offerings from IBM. That fact that Project Zero is based on a number of open source technologies and that it represents such a significant investment on top of these technologies speaks to IBM?s commitment.
----------------------------------------------------
That last sentence is pretty interesting: it's built on open source, we hope to create a community, please submit your fixes/enhancements, etc...oh, but we own all the rights to it and will charge a commercial license for it.
Someone at IBM must think OSS developers are naive kids who will work for free to improve IBM's bottom line.
Re: IBM Unveils Rails-like Web Stack Built Using Java & Groovy - Project Ze
"community Driven Commercial Development" ?The HYCEITL, the Have Your Cake and Eat It Too License
Re: IBM Unveils Rails-like Web Stack Built Using Java & Groovy - Project Ze
LOL - and I guess now it's Sun's turn to start badmouthing IBM over not open-sourcing all their stuff...Re: IBM Unveils Rails-like Web Stack Built Using Java & Groovy - Project Ze
After having a look at it and especially the license text, two words from me: IMHO, DOARe: IBM Unveils Rails-like Web Stack Built Using Java & Groovy - Project Ze
Anyone trying out ProjectZero might wish to compare it with Grails at http://grails.codehaus.org/ which has a lot of momentum and an apparently nicer licence...Not so groovy speed ?
What is the status on speed of groovy? Last time I have checked it (around switch to jsr dialect) it was around 100 slower then java for cpu-intensive things. While most of the time in web apps will be spend in db/traffic/container anyway, this can still affect overall speed considerably.Re: Not so groovy speed ?
> What is the status on speed of groovy? Last time I> have checked it (around switch to jsr dialect) it was
> around 100 slower then java for cpu-intensive things.
> While most of the time in web apps will be spend in
> db/traffic/container anyway, this can still affect
> overall speed considerably.
Well, since it can be compiled into Java bytecode ...
Cute
Unless there is a whole wack load of support API's, I don't think there's a whole lot there.A good couple of weeks of hacking and you could duplicate this looks like - if you've been there done that.
I've create 2 Java+Javascript based webservers myself a number of years ago. I've even had a couple of paying customers run on it (mortgage brokers), using my home brewed content management system (adjust rates, change text, replace images, handle mortgage applications, form validation, admin, email lists, etc). It had a *really* nice template engine. Persistence was template like sql scripts, simple and to the point.
I *still* don't like the clumsy template engines I'm seeing today in general, they're still mostly missing the point in my opinion.
Hint: graphic/web "designers" are *still* on the side lines.
I also had the webserver use a "layout" of files, instead of using those darn xml config files. Internally, I wired up a servlet to the appropriate user's script, calling doGet, etc. It handled sessions automatically. Just plunk your web, graphic, and script files down, and Bob's your uncle. I had it running a number of websites on one of those $25 virtual dedicated Linux hosting accounts, in the early days of "User Mode Linux". I also had it automatically handle having multiple websites serving off of one single ip address. I couldn't immediately find that feature looking through PZ's directory layout.
Anyway, kinda cute to see a large company create something that kinda saw the light, but not all the way.
Keep up the good work...?
ARGHHHH!
GRAILS GRAILS GRAILS GRAILSThis kind of crap makes me mad.
This is exactly what Grails is trying to do - rather than steamroller other projects why can't they lend their considerable talents to them.
Sigh.
Re: Not so groovy speed ?
> Well, since it can be compiled into Java bytecode ...It IS compiled into bytecode and still ended up being 100 times slower. Basically, when you call any method from groovy, instead of using native java dispatch for virtual method calls (which is VERY optimized, including possibly inlining of common cases) groovy ends up with going through very convoluted evaluation scheme (to support all the cases of closures/mixins/overloads/whatever is there).
Official answer I got at that time was that they were trying to work on stabilizing the syntax and rules of the language and it doesn't make sense to optimize it at this point. I'm just wondering, if any real improvements happened since then.
Re: IBM Unveils Rails-like Web Stack Built Using Java & Groovy - Project Ze
That last sentence is pretty interesting: it's built on open source, we hope to create a community, please submit your fixes/enhancements, etc...oh, but we own all the rights to it and will charge a commercial license for it. Someone at IBM must think OSS developers are naive kids who will work for free to improve IBM's bottom line.You're right to criticize IBM over this, and it will doom this project to failure (at least the community aspect).
I just don't see how this is different from Sun. After all, Sun requires you to sign over ownership of any contributions you make to the Sun JDK/JRE to them.